Only just found this tc, but I'm delighted to hear that you're writing a novel, 'cos I think your poetry's wonderful and if you can spread even a little of that into a novel, it'll be terrific.

Going back to your original point about linearity, I have never written in any kind of chronological order. It usually feels like digging up a load of bits of pottery and not knowing whether they even belong to the same pot, but you find that pieces which seem to have no relation at all to what you're writing suddenly blossom into whole new threads and link up with everything else.

In poetry, I imagine you sometimes get that feeling that something is pulling at you, a picture, something you see on TV, an image in your head and if you follow it it turns into words. The same thing happens in novels. That's how you collect the bits, then stick them together when you're in a patient mood. Don't try to look at the whole thing too often; it feels like trying to shove a basketball in your mouth.

Sharon

<Added>

I forgot to mention, sometimes I write ABOUT the story, ramble on and on for pages and pages repeating myself, asking myself questions. It seems to allow things to fall into place.

Sharon

If you haven't read tc's The Symmetry of Dreams, you must!

(Sorry to talk about you as if you're not here, tc! Just go in the other room for a couple of minutes.)

It's powerful stuff, but only to be expected from someone who has tc's control of language.

You can come out now, tc. Hello ... where are you?

I like your 'digging up pottery' analogy, Sharon, but I find the 'basketball' one a bit hard to swallow

I always try to be organised in my writing, but it somehow never quite makes it. And I think, like you, I end up with bits and pieces that get re-arranged and slotted together until I'm happy with what emerges.

All the best

jumbo

Sharon , Jumbs, (cheque in post )
The message is coming through loud and clear that there's no need for a strict linear approach at this stage, which I think is a big part of what was deterring me - that I couldn't get that basket ball in me gob!
I still am not certain where its going, but I've begun so ..er....that's a start....(sorry)
I'll concentrate on the parts I'm sure about first and hope that from that the rest grows. As I wrote the bit I've just posted, other ideas came into focus and I'm sure that will happen as I tackle other new bits, more and more of the structure will unroll itself.

And I'm actually enjoying it now, which must make a difference. I'm not afraid of it. Before it almost had a life of its own, this big thing that was going to prove once and for all that I could write (or not). Now I've realised I own it and it ain't going anywhere I don't take it, so Emma's Demon is tamed, at least for a while.

Thanks everyone, this thread has helped me no end, and I really, really appreciate all your words of wisdom.
x
tc

Jumbo, I will have a look at Symmetry as soon as poss. And stay away from that basketball; we don't want you choking yourself. Actually the sensation is more like having a hot air balloon in your head, steadily inflating. Don't you ever get that when you try to look at the big picture? Sharon

Sharon

I think you're talking about what I would call 'panic'!

One other small point, tc, (no personal comments, please) is that you should expect - somewhere between your first rough draft and your final, finished, pristine manuscript - to delete at least fifteen percent - if not more - of what you first wrote.

And that's not to say it shouldn't have been written in the first place. It just needs to be polished - and edited - and re-polished - and re-polished.

I guess that writing poetry would be the same. (Not that I would know.)

All the best

jumbo

I too find this an interesting thread. I often wonder what makes other writers tick when they are at it all alone for thousands of words. Like others, I get lost on plot (however one defines it) and worry a lot about the macro-level of a large text, especially when it is fiction.

But I sometimes think that helpful friends should tell a writer if s/he is writing absolute rubbish - just to avoid wasting all that time. It is easy to spot the works that will eventually attract an agent's eye - simply you want to continue reading it. And it is fairly easy to see what will not make it in terms of mastering the basics. This is not always pointed out - I wish somebody could have done that for me at various times.

Hamburger Yogi

HY,

I have a certain empathy with your comments, although I would not use the word 'absolute'.

I appreciate that criticism needs to be as constructive as possible and I do think there is a danger that when so much feedback is actively sought and incorporated in one's writing, this risks the diminishing, the lessening of the originality and with it the individuality of the writer's style and creativity.

However, on reflection I don't think I would ever use the word 'rubbish' to describe the work of another. It pre-supposes that I know so much more than anyone else, which is an excessive stance and also an incorrect one.

Len

I used to be one of those people who wanted a full plan and character analysis before I started writing. Then I realised that I wouldn't get anything done. Now I fall between two camps. I write a very short plotline to start and short biogs for the main characters. Then I set out to write a very fast first draft - normally taking about a month and a half. This first draft is rough and I allow myself the luxury of making errors, using fake character names, marking research that needs to be done or holes in description. Nothing stops me from moving forward.

Then, when it is finished,I allow myself another month to tidy up the first draft, rework some of the sub-plots, add character and location descriptions. Voila, a completed manuscript that you can then play around with at your leisure.

I am a little wary of writing scenes out of sync, as suggested. I used to know editor Deborah Beale and she said that you can lose the build and flow of emotion if you choosing scenes to write. You need to be able to key into the emotion and MO of scene before you write it.

Regards,


John

An interesting thread indeed.

I remember launching right into my first novel when I was 16, hand-written, about 300 pages, and utterly godawful. I had no idea of where it was going, but the enthusiasm just compelled me to churn out word after word, suffice to say I learnt my mistake.

So I started on short stories, problem was I could barely write a short story under 40 pages, after a few I saw this as a sign I should return to novel writing anew. I made a planned outline, started writing - 200 pages, it fell apart.

Third novel now, same thing.

Fourth novel ( couldn't make this up, could you? ), and one which I feel is by far my best work, it has a theme I care about and a very personal style to it. So far I've written about 80 pages on it, but I find myself going in fits and starts, I tried the 'write something every day, no matter what' but ended up producing such utter trash it started affecting my morale. So now I write in fits and starts, its a habit I'm trying to break, I know there's some measure of talent in there but it seems impossible to channel it into a regular routine - when I write, I write very well, otherwise I just don't write at all.

You really do need to try to 'tame' your output, as has been suggested try to write a certain number of words a day and once you are achieving that with ease then increase the output, I failed but my muse is covered in pig grease and utterly invisible; I very rarely lay my hands on them.

Plus, here's an important point, so important I'm going to give it some obnoxious caps; NO-ONE HAS TO READ WHAT YOU'VE WRITTEN UNLESS YOU LET THEM, we all feel that 'fear' about our work but the truth is someone isn't going to break into your house with the sole intention of chuckling at your ill-formed characters or dialogue as they stand. So, crucially, don't be afraid to write and play around, get your hands dirty, have fun. THEN you can polish it up and snip all the loose ends before you show it to anyone, but before that point what you can do is almost limitless, dive right into it and start making a mess, a mess signifies life, humour, involvement, and those qualities will be open to you if you're honest enough to put down what you think and feel.