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  • Slightly obscure medieval history question
    by SamMorris at 10:17 on 19 May 2007
    Help!

    In the book I'm writing the narrator has to visit Rome to retrieve an artefact from the Papal residence. The year's about 1315, so I appreciate the Pope himself would be in Avignon at this time. Does anyone know where in Rome my character might go?

    There are plenty of places mentioned from that time with Papal connections, but no clear contenders. I was kind of hoping for somewhere with a large and creepy gothic crypt.

    Thanks again to anyone who can help!

    Sam
  • Re: Slightly obscure medieval history question
    by NMott at 13:45 on 19 May 2007
    From Wikipedia:

    Before the Avignon Papacy (1305-1378), the headquarters of the Holy See were located at the Lateran Palace.

    Every pope from Miltiades occupied the Lateran Palace until the reign of the French Pope Clement V, who in 1309 decided to transfer the official seat of the Catholic Church to Avignon, a papal fief that was an enclave within France. During the Avignon papacy, the Lateran Palace and the basilica began to decline. Two destructive fires rampaged through the Lateran Palace and the basilica, in 1307 and again in 1361. In both cases, the Avignon papacy sent money to their bishops in Rome to cover the costs of reconstruction and maintenance. Despite the action, the Lateran Palace and the basilica lost their former splendor.


    Although, presumably the Pope would have left artifacts at the Lateran Palace, probably in safe storage in the papal tombs, underneath - how historically acurate do you want it to be? If it is a real artifact I can pin down it's position, if it's something you've made up for the story, it can be where-ever you want it to be. The logical place would be in the tombs, safe from any fires, or in Avignon.

    When the Avignon papacy formally ended and the Bishop of Rome again resided in Rome, the Lateran Palace and the basilica were deemed inadequate considering the accumulated damage. The popes took up residency at the Basilica di Santa Maria in Trastevere and later at the Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore. Eventually, the Palace of the Vatican was constructed, and the papacy moved in; the papacy remains there today....
    After the Avignon Papacy the church administration moved to Vatican Hill and the papal palace was (until 1871) the Quirinal Palace, upon the Quirinal Hill....The palace was built in 1573 by Pope Gregory XIII,
    - so too late for your piece, Sam. Also the Vatican Museum was not set up until the 16th Century.

    - NaomiM

    <Added>

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica_di_San_Giovanni_in_Laterano

    <Added>

    This second church lasted for four hundred years and then burnt in 1308. It was rebuilt by Pope Clement V and Pope John XXII, only to be burnt down once more in 1360, but again rebuilt by Pope Urban V.

    Since your date is 1315, soon after the fire of 1308, reconstruction would probably not have been completed and your 'thief' could enter in the guise of eg. a builder or stonemason.


    <Added>

    Unfortunately, I can't find reference to papal tombs in a catacombs-type set up. Today they are simply stone tombs inside the current building:

    Papal Tombs
    There are six papal tombs inside the basilica: Alexander III (right aisles), Sergius IV (right aisles), Clement XIII Corsini (left aisle), Martin V (in front of the confessio) by Simone Ghini; Innocent III (right transept); and Leo XIII (left transept), by G. Tadolini (1907).



    <Added>

    Probably better to base it in Avignon. Unfortunately the Gothic palace was not built until 1335:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palais_des_Papes

    The Palais des Papes in Avignon, France is one of the largest and most important medieval Gothic buildings in Europe. It is one of many places called the Palace of the Popes.

    Avignon became the residence of the Popes in 1309, fleeing the violent chaos of Rome. The Palais was built between 1335 and 1364 on a natural rocky outcrop at the northern edge of Avignon, overlooking the river Rhône. The site was formerly occupied by the old episcopal palace of the bishops of Avignon.



    <Added>


    Perhaps you should look at Cathédrale Notre-Dame des Doms, Avignon


    Cathédrale Notre-Dame des Doms (Avignon, Provence): Next to the Palais des Papes, this was a luminous Romanesque structure before baroque artists took over. It was partially reconstructed from the 14th through the 17th century. In 1859, it was topped by a tall gilded statue of the Virgin, which earned it harsh criticism from many architectural critics. The cathedral houses the tombs of two popes, John XXII and Benedict XII. You'd think this cathedral would be more impressive because of its role in papal history, but it appears that far more time and money went into the construction of the papal palace. Nevertheless, the cathedral reigned during the heyday of Avignon.





    <Added>

    Of course, with all this later rebuilding, who is to say there weren't catacombs below these buildings at one time. But probably of Roman design rather than a Gothic crypt which came later in the 14th Century.

    Although from Wikipedia:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacombs_of_Rome

    By the 10th century catacombs were practically abandoned, and holy relics were transferred to above-ground basilicas. In the intervening centuries they remained forgotten until they were accidentally rediscovered in 1578, after which Antonio Bosio spent decades exploring and researching them for his volume, Roma Sotterranea (1632).


    <Added>

    The accidental discovery in 1578 of an ancient subterranean cemetery on the Via Salaria had attracted general attention in Rome

    http://chi.gospelcom.net/DAILYF/2001/05/daily-05-31-2001.shtml

    <Added>

    So, by 1315 the last pope would have died 1314, the new palace in Avignon would not have been built, the old one in Rome would be nearing completion after the fire in 1308. A relic would probably have been stored in one of the papal basilicas in Rome or the Cathédrale Notre-Dame des Doms, Avignon, unless it dated back to before the 10th Century, in which case it might still be down the old roman catacombs under the city.


    <Added>

    One last thought:

    If the artifact is anything to do with a saint - relic or bone - it is a little different since there was a huge pilgrimage industry based around them. They were kept on display to entice the pilgrims to visit - and many churches and cathedrals petitioned the Vatican for pieces of saints so as to attact their own pilgrims...
  • Re: Slightly obscure medieval history question
    by SamMorris at 19:28 on 19 May 2007
    Blimey, thanks Naomi! That's an absolute wealth of information you've uncovered and I'm not sure grateful quite covers it.

    I really wanted it to be in Rome. I think the dilapidated state of the place at that time would add a nice element of drama, and also be a good contrast to the narrator's inflated sense of his own importance. As for the artefact itself, it's probably going to be something invented. It's almost entirely vanity that has sent him on his mission, a wild goose chase, a spurious religious expedition, so what it actually is not vital.

    Anyway, I've got plenty to go on now and thanks again.

    Sam
  • Re: Slightly obscure medieval history question
    by geoffmorris at 19:51 on 19 May 2007
    Sam this is no big deal for the person who found both the Arl of the Covenant and the Holy Grail complete with original crusader
  • Re: Slightly obscure medieval history question
    by SamMorris at 09:14 on 20 May 2007
    Ah-ha - so it's Indiana Mott
  • Re: Slightly obscure medieval history question
    by NMott at 13:13 on 20 May 2007
    Ok, who took my whip....

  • Re: Slightly obscure medieval history question
    by geoffmorris at 12:46 on 22 May 2007
    There are so so many replies to that Naomi