JB we've all been there, it's an easy mistake to make. Glad to hear The Prestige is a great movie.

Oh yes it truly is, you really should go watch it. I was rather impressed. Nice to watch a fantasy film that doesn't have dwarves in it, or David Bowie in tight trousers!

JB

I think there's a lot more novel adaptations at the cinema than we realise. I read somewhere that the figure is something like 30 or 40 per cent, although looking at the current UK Top 10 I can only see 20 per cent, ie The Prestige and Casino Royale.

It gets more interesting when you look at any list of critically acclaimed movies - for example 5 of the IMDB Top 10 Movies of All Time are novel adaptations. (two Godfathers, Lord Of The Rings, The Shawshank Redemption, and Schindler's List).

And I learnt something from this exercise. Who knew that Casablanca was originally a play (albeit unproduced) ?

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OK, before anyone points this out, yes, Shawshank was a novella...

I didn't know that about Casablanca no, but I loved Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption, which is in Stephen King's Different Seasons collection. It is quite incredible to think what they can do with such a small amount of material.

JB

Short stories and novellas and modern stage plays are the right length for a film. You can't get a whole novel in without ferocious cutting, or making the film uncommercially long.

Emma

Didn't think of that! You're right of course.

JB

Apologies for reviving such an old thread but I thought new members might find the subject interesting and didn't want to force the original posters to say their stuff all over again!

My dilemma is this. I have an idea for something which has been inspired by a novel I read recently and am not sure if what I have in mind qualifies as plagiarism or mere influence.

The characters are completely different. The plot is completely different. The writing style will be completely different. But . . .

The setting is fairly similar, at least in part. The secondary characters' view of the main character is similar to a degree but more variable. The structure and use of viewpoint is very similar. The central theme is pretty much identical.

You can't copyright ideas anyway, only their expression - i.e. the words you write them in.

This is comforting but structure, setting etc. all come under the umbrella of 'expression' too - don't they?

Any advice very gratefully received, thanks.

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The characters, though, aren't different in that they all suffer from the force of the main theme on their lives.

The characters are completely different. The plot is completely different. The writing style will be completely different.

Wordsmithreen, I really, really wouldn't worry. These are the building-blocks of your story, and they're all different.

If the setting existed before either you or this film got to it, then it's neither of your copyrights.

Structure is structure - storytelling - there are no original ones.

Viewpoint is just technique - a tool available to all of us.

Theme is an idea - not copyrightable.

Besides, who knows how it will all change once you get into it?

Emma

Thanks, Emma, your voice of reason has allayed my fears.

I guess it goes back to the idea that there are just seven basic plots, and the Willa Cather quote about there being only two or three human stories, and they go on repeating themselves.

Great, sleeves-rolling-up time!

I guess it goes back to the idea that there are just seven basic plots, and the Willa Cather quote about there being only two or three human stories, and they go on repeating themselves.

Yes, exactly.

Can't remember who said, of one of the times that someone tried to sue JKR for plagiarism, that it's usually people who don't read very much who are convinced their idea has been "stolen".

Un-Reading Writer has a great idea of a mashup of a school story and a magic story. Un-Reading Writer doesn't (because they don't read much) realise that it is definitely not was the first time anyone had had such a great idea.

And so when someone else does it it, Un-Reading Writer assumes that the idea must have been "stolen". Whereas in fact it's just a re-working of a classic setting and a classic theme (see also under Jaws, Star Wars...)

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Un-Reading Writer doesn't (because they don't read much) realise that it is definitely not the first time anyone had had such a great idea.

Emma, do you think it fair to summarise it like this:

Anything concrete like character types, names, plot, chunks of writing, slavish adherence to writing style, i.e. actual copying is plagiarism whilst anything more abstract like structure, combinations of POV, settings are not?

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It's more the combination of elements that worries me that anything on its own although, as you say, it is likely to development in other directions - indeed, it already is.

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Looking again at your first response, it's not the copyright of this novel (film???) I'm worried about (think its out of copyright, anyway), just the accusation of ripping it off. Also, because everything I've ever written has been original in that its come out of my head, not somebody else's. But, as I've said, I am more and more comfortable that my story is morphing away from the story that has inspired it.

Anything concrete like character types, names, plot, chunks of writing, slavish adherence to writing style, i.e. actual copying is plagiarism w

Well, plagiarism isn't a legal crime, and the ethical position you take is yours to decide.

Chunks of writing are copyrightable, so you need to be careful.

Character types - I don't see how you can copyright those, and if yours are rooted in truth and observation, you're not plagiarising.

Character names? Arguable. I'd avoid, unless you're actively trying to make a point, but they can't be copyright, because there will be real people in the world called the same thing, so the previous author can't have copyright in them.

Plot? There are only seven. Or however many.

Writing style? Unless you copy chunks (see above), it's pretty undefinable. Every writer's voice is an evolution of what they read before they were twenty-five.

Whilst anything more abstract like structure, combinations of POV, settings are not?

No, I can't see how they could be copyrightable, and we all draw on what writers before us did. It's called a tradition.

it's not the copyright of this novel (film???) I'm worried about (think its out of copyright, anyway), just the accusation of ripping it off.

Well, call it an hommage, and you'll be fine.

Seriously, I do think this kind of fret really isn't necessary - though we all fall into it on occasions. Those voices accusing you of ripping things off are just Ann Lamott's Chattering White Mice, to be dropped in a jar and have the lid firmly put on.

To put it another way, that voice is often just your Inner Critic dressing up as your Inner Intellectual Property Lawyer (see here if you've no idea what I'm on about: http://emmadarwin.typepad.com/thisitchofwriting/2009/10/the-inner-critics-dressingup-box.html )

Go for it. Zadie Smith's On Beauty is an hommage to Howard's End.

Thank you for your detailed response, Emma, but we seem to be talking somewhat at cross-purposes. As I've said, I'm not talking about copyright, but ethics. And, as I've also said, my story has now departed greatly from the story that inspired it.

the ethical position you take is yours to decide

Not really. Stealing someone else's work is ethically damnable, not down to individual conscience.

Chunks of writing are copyrightable, so you need to be careful.

Did you really think I was talking about wanting to steal chunks of writing? I thought it was clear that I was trying to summarise what probably constituted plagiarism and what didn't, not checking to see if I could get away with copying!

Character names? Arguable.

What I meant was, taking the names, say, Elizabeth Bennet, Mr Darcy, Charlotte Lucas et al and putting them in your own story.

Perhaps you misunderstand on purpose?

Did you really think I was talking about wanting to steal chunks of writing?

No, of course not - I was unpicking your list of issues, and saying what I thought about each of them. I'm always aware that others read threads, and may be new to these issues, and wouldn't want to skip something out just for fear of being seen to state the obvious.

But, after all, someone before any of us wrote "I love you", in a novel, which doesn't make any of us a plagiarist, or a breacher of copyright, if we write the same thing.

It's a matter of quantity in both plagiarism and copyright law: how many words and phrases from the common stock does a chunk have to go on for, before it becomes unique to that writer?

Stealing someone else's work is ethically damnable,

Yes, but you have to define what "their work" is - what constitutes something they can be considered to own - before you can discuss whether you've stolen that thing.

It's about what kind of ownership an author has in what aspects of their novel - and what's just two writers drawing on a common store of names, stories, settings, literary traditions and so on.

That's the point I was making - you have to decide for yourself what aspects of another writer's work are owned by them, so that you don't feel ethically able to do the same thing in your work.

Just about every writer would probably have a different ethical system going on. For example, I wouldn't turn a hair at calling a character Charlotte Lucas. Why not? They're both perfectly common names - there are 86 Charlotte Lucases on the first Internet UK address thingy I looked at. I wouldn't turn a hair at calling a character Barnaby Rudge, or Mr Squeers, or Miss Pettigrew, if it suited my purposes.

I would, however, assume that quite a few of my readers would know it was a P&P (or whatever) reference, so I'd probably only do it if I was playing games with P&P references. And I'd only do that if I could do it and still deliver full value nonetheless, as it were, to the reader who wasn't going to get them.

I also wouldn't turn a hair at studying - for example - what it is that makes P&P one of the most perfectly-plotted novels ever, and having a bloomin' good try at taking that lesson into my own work.

Again, why not? We all learn from the masters. It's just that good writers transmute what they learn, through their own creative processes, so it's not so obvious where they learnt it from except at the X-ray level.

I meant, indeed I said, EB, Mr D, Charlotte Lucas et al, i.e. the character names in combo. I'm clearly not getting my point across at all. Never mind.

Actually, given the number of sequels and prequels written around various well-known novels, I guess even that is acceptable when it's touted as an 'homage'.

What I think I really meant - and, clearly, here I really am at fault in my self-expression - is taking an existing literary character and changing him slightly. Perhaps a very tall poker player called Rick who limps on his left leg re-hashed as a very short roulette player called Nick who limps on his right leg. Silly example, I know, but perhaps you know what I mean?