Hey all.

I know this seems to be a bit on the broad side, but is there anything other people have found 'objectionable' on your work. I only ask because my long-time project deals with just about every horror I wanted to address and that turned out to be quite a lot of subjects. Having had feedback the concensus seems to be that whilst upsetting for some, the story would feel awkward if edited or diluted in anyway.

I guess the question is, is there really a certain level of detail for certain subjects that one should stop at.

For a long time in one novel's developement I had a mother-son relationship which had produced a child. It wasn't exactly central, but it was part of the pattern of various important themes of the book. In the end I cut it out, because it seemed to take so many people aback - not in how it was described, which was fleeting, but in the idea - so much that it unbalanced their reading of the whole book. It was only revealed at the end, and it was as if it loomed too large for readers, retrospectively. I suspect it's one of those things that either you don't put in at all, or it has to be what most of the book's about.

Emma

I guess it is more of a detail than a subject matter issue. It always used to seem as though an author had to hammer away to give the impression that he took no kind of pleasure or interest in so called I unpleasant or gratuitous scenes. An author qould be slated for being 'voyouristic' if a morally questionable scene wasn't justified so I guess it's just a case of presenting the tale as it needs to be told and maybe challenging people to explain why something in the story should go rather than stay.

Thanks

Daryl.

In my opinion 'anything goes'. The important questions are 'Does what you write offend you?' If it does then think again.

The second question is 'Are you writing material that is deliberately aimed at offending others?' If you are then make sure you know what the Law says, and think again.

Len

Hi Trenchcoat,

You can never go too far, but if it's just shock writing for effect then it can end up looking pretty lame. Take American Psycho for instance, a poorly written book by anyone's standards the only thing that really stands out is the overly graphic scenes of mutlilation and homophobic homicide. Aside from that it's an arrogant piece of gibberish hiding under the pretence of being some critique on modern society. Indeed the depravity is the only reason that anyone actually read the book, but the point is the violence was in itself a worthless contribution.

On the other hand, writers that have been singled out as shock writers, most notably Chuck Pahlahniuk and the less well known J T Leroy describe scenes that show the wretchedness of humanity, not for shock purposes, as many believe, but because, for many, these are the realities of their lives.

Both these writers do use a degree of fabulation in their novels largely due to the fact that most people find straight stories of child abuse and the like simply unpalatable. And so to remove the readers from reality somewhat, to cushion them as it were, they employ a certain degree fiction in which they embed the horrors of reality.

Why don't you post something so we can have a looksee for ourselves?

Geoff

PS It may be a completely wild guess here, but your signature wouldn't be a reference to the Trenchcoat Mafia would it? maybe hinting at what you're working on? Then again it could be a detective story!

Good point well made, Geoff.

I've read some Palahniuk (Choke, Monster, Fight Club) and all of Ellis' stuff and they certainly are up there for graphic detail but then so are a lot of 'airport books'. You know the mainstream thriller and horror novels that are bound to have thier own standees no matter where you see them.

I guess the concensus is here then is that you should just go for it but be prepared to have to defend any work containing graphic detail and the use of disturbing imagery.

PS: Good guesses but I guess I just like trenchcoats, heh heh.

I've written violence and rape and murder and homosexual sex and anti-religious matter. I've written swear words, vomiting and cannabilism. But strangely, what seems to offend people the most is the overuse of adjectives and adverbs.

JB

The important questions are 'Does what you write offend you?' If it does then think again.

Not sure I agree with that. We all have our own, inbuilt sensor for difficult subjects, and I think we have to override it if we want to write honestly. Otherwise we end up writing lame crap.

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I agree with the overuse of adjectives and particularly adverbs, which are the spawn of the devil. Or JK Rowling.

How far is too far? Well, if you're a hedonist like me, and bored shitless with all the lame-ass, white bread rubbish that gets churned out every year in the name of being 'literary' - too far is not far enough!!!

JB

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As far as objections go, I have recieved two so far - strong letters of complaint from American Christians, who found my Jesus in a Chat Room story too unpalatable. I answered their complaint with a balanced 'thanks for reading, your comments let me know I am on the right track', but neither replied.

Wait until they get a load of TA!

JB

As long as it’s justifiable to the plot of your narrative, then the characters should go as far as they feel necessary, no matter how far that is. It’s a fine line, but if you get it right, your readers will respect you for it more than if you merely skirted the issue and hinted at something horrible.

I’m, personally, sick to death of all the 9/11 ™ references in fiction. How many millions have been made off of this I wouldn’t like to think. It’s more than bad taste, it’s exploitation at its worst and I don’t find it entertaining. I find it highly unoriginal. It’s the one thing in contemporary fiction that really f***s me off. Because everybody is doing it, they're all doing it - like sheep.

Right, I’m off to write an epic American Novel called ‘My September Days’. I don’t think so!

Ste

I suggest that you just shoot from the hip.
someone else said in a post "if it offends you then maybe think again..."
pretty sound advice but...
and I do mean there's a big but (no asinine pun intended there.)
If you feel it has to be said, whatever it is, just BUST IT OUT !...
Another problem with this 'how far is too far question', and I encounter a lot when i stand up in front of a pub full of people and crack off a few poetiphets is the projected and/or dreadfull self censorship spectres of P.C. both from within, and from others... don't even think about that even think about that, just write it out...
some of the true things that i have experienced and / or seen would beggar belief... some of these are truly appalling...
but if I want to try and explain them, talk about them, take the **** out of them,... then have i gone too far...
I think not.
so maybe the only time any writer has gone too far is when they thwart their own creative output based on what they may be worried about others may say about it... or worse still that some people may not understand/want to understand/or accidentally/purposefully get the wrong end of the stick, and then proceed to bash your head in with it.
personally speaking i couldn't care less about what others may or may not think about what i write as long as i am being true to myself and my attempt to get accross whatever it is that i am saying... irrespective of whether they understand it or not, i know that given the law of percentages that there's bound to be at least one person eventually who will.
rev.two-sheds (temporary member)


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ps.
good luck with your work...
if from the top of my head i can remember it here's a poem I wrote that may be a bit of a help in this ...

everythings been said before..
but what the hell lets say it more...
whether of love
or lugubrious loss
we really shouldn't give a toss
if it needs saying so it should
be stated, any poet would
make lines free fly just like the birds
and if if one could release those words
those special poets words that rhyme
just right when written every time
words like
sublime...
and prime
cuts through the grease ev'ry time
buddy can you spare a dime
jim daevison
pants
pantomime.

...just say what you want to say.
don't worry about it, anyone who says any writer has gone too far obviously doesn't get out much.