...remember the early days of Vic and Bob where they had the catchphrase 'You wouldn't let it lie!', 'No, YOU wouldn't let it lie'!!
:-)

I agree that Clark raises the bar, but firmly believe her tongue is delicately placed in her cheek as she does so!

Furthermore, I can tell you I am an adult who enjoys the Harry Potter books, having read them to my kids from the start. And while there may indeed be readers fitting your descriptions, none of your categories apply to me! It's a measure of Rowling's appeal that she has succeeded in democratising her genre among all sections of society. Remember too that her success will encourage readers to experiment with other works of fantasy and discover for themselves the wonders of the genre.

Andy

In a word, 'bollocks'.

This is exactly the kind of ninny-nancy pretensions crap that Guardian readers attribute to Rowling's art. It won't do any such thing. All it will do is breed a generation of bad writers, with cliched ideas, and an eye on the bank balance.

Anyway, I'm glad you enjoy them. You obviously have not experienced the original stories Rowling ripped off, and are therefore free to appreciate it as an orginal work.

No, I won't let it lie, because I can't.

JB

On the contrary - it's fun to recognise the sources of her work. And do you really think there is any genuinely original writing? What is not derivative?

Andy

There is derivative, and then there is influenced, and then there is stealing. Aside from that, I just don't think they are well written. The Order of the Phoenix is without doubt one of the most boring books I've ever read. The characters are unbelievable, HP himself is one of the dullest characters to ever grace the pages of English literature, and basically, I just don't like it.

I accept people do, of course, but my opinion is based on my impressions of it. I've read all the books, and this is my general feeling about them. I won't be convinced otherwise. I read Books of Magic. It came out the year Rowling started HP, funnily enough.

Anyway, I don't have the stomach for another argument with a HP fan. I'm allowed to express an opinion and I have. I'm sorry if it offended you. If you get pleasure out of HP, fine, I'm not saying you shouldn't. But neither can you force me to see merits in it.

JB

For the record, I don't claim to be an HP fan - I'm responding only to prevent injustices being done. She's successful - good luck to her. Obviously she's done something right. We'd all like to be that successful!

Injustices?

It is injust to steal someone else's idea and flog it as your own, and, for the record, success in the modern world is no measure of ability or talent.

JB

If people buy your books avidly, you clearly have the ability to please!

<Added>

By the way, your posts remind me of the old adage: "amateurs borrow, professionals steal" - be that wrong or right, it happens all the time! As a management consultant, my expertise is in advising clients about knowledge management and organisational learning strategies. It's a truism in this field that innovation does not come about through blue skies thinking, but rather through a process of networking and socialisation of existing ideas throughout an organisation. The innovator is the one who harnesses the power of evolution of ideas and puts it to profitable work. The same might be said of many writers.

Cheers!

Andy

I think that's rubbish and you know it. You cannot reasonably compare a fictional work of the imagination to a corporate business statagem! That is clearly ridiculous. One is a direct result of 'blue sky thinking' the other is business savvy. They are world's apart.

Yes, things are derivative and influenced in many genres. Then you get writer's who steal things wholesale, the whole blueprint of a character and idea, and paint it up as their own idea. An idea Rowling herself had rigidly defended through sue and countersue, as may detractors have pointed out glaring similarities between HP and previous works. A lot of them are mentioned in this thread, and it is very compelling. I am not one to say such things without a certain amount of highly suspicious evidence.

The success of these books is clearly a product of hype and merchandising and endless promotion to unsuspecting kids. For people like you, who seem so eager to place HP on the lofty shelves of British literature, alongside far superior works such as His Dark Materials, and The Hobbit, I just feel an extreme irritation.

The standards of literature have to be protected, and the barometer is a high one indeed. To suggest JK Rowling deserves to be among the ranks of Tolkien, Pullman, CS Lewis, and a wealth of other esteemed fantasy writers, is not only ludicrous, it is also slightly heretical. It also points to a blinding lack of taste, knowledge and appreciation of skill on the part of the person suggesting it.

JB

As you know full well, I did no such thing - I did say it was enjoyable reading the HP books to my kids, and I stand by that. I also said that an introduction to Potter would encourage young readers to try other works of fantasy, and so it has. My daughter has since read CS Lewis, Pulman and Tolkien. How come Mervyn Peake was missed off your list, by the way?

To the best of my knowledge, Rowling has only sued for breach of her copyright by those who copied her characters.

Andy

I was speaking generally.

JK Rowling has also sued:

She has also sued the following:

An American newspaper for discussing the plot of a HP book before it came out.

The American Army - over claims of plagiarism would you believe. Rowling claims the army plagiarised HP in a training manual!

The People's Republic of China - For unauthorised Chinese language 'sequels' to HP.


Neil Gaiman, on the other hand, did not sue JK Rowling for kidnapping the character of Timothy Hunter and turning him into HP. In an interview, Rowling stated Gaiman had been 'gotten to.'

JB

Anyway, aside from all these things, I don't think the writing has any quality to it. I'm an adult, a well read one, and not your daughter.

Bit sniffy and superior of you to say so. Sounds like jealousy to me!

Oh god, that old chestnut!

I think that's rubbish and you know it. You cannot reasonably compare a fictional work of the imagination to a corporate business statagem! That is clearly ridiculous. One is a direct result of 'blue sky thinking' the other is business savvy. They are world's apart.

Don't agree. Ideas evolve, regardless of whether they end up planted in novels, strategies or any other end product. Writers source endlessly from personal experience and the ideas of others, and in so doing they add their own slant or interpretation. Consider this: Bob Dylan, now being feted as one of our greatest songwriters, began his career by rewriting English folk songs. Nobody accused him of theft, because there is a tradition of retelling and adding to stories. Yet he created something original from the bones of other writers' work.

However much you consider your novel to be blue skies thinking, you know the truth - that is a product distilled and collated from your experience and all the works you've ever read, something Truman Capote once called "writing at full power." It may be subconscious (remember the court case when George Harrison was accused of unconsciously borrowing the tune of the 60s Motown hit 'He's So Fine' when he wrote 'My Sweet Lord'?), but it's always there. You can't possibly divorce yourself from that experience.

Andy