Continuation of the discussion on my poem in progress “Byzantium”.

http://www.writewords.org.uk/archive/9150.asp

Rebecca, I appreciate your point of view, but disagree as to what is appropriate for theme or subject in poetry or fiction. Our views of sexuality in literature are vastly different. The world has not been (to paraphrase Hobbes) a courteous and civilized place.

I write on many themes including in small part sexuality, terrorism, serial murder and child abuse.

I also write love poems that are not sexually explicit. Nature and history fascinate. One poem “Narratives of New Netherland” was nominated for a Push Cart Prize.

My posted work demonstrates my versatility. It is also my experience, contrary to your advice, that more readers and writers --not less -- respond to controversial work than work that doesn’t challenge what is considered appropriate. That said, -- it is not my intention to write for scandal. That is not the point of my work but a consequence of the themes.

I will continue to workshop the remaining sections of “Byzantium” at appropriate intervals. Most of these sections (16 out of 18) will not cause alarm. The structure of your site protects readers and writers from accidentally exposure to violent or sexual themes.

All comments so far have been useful. I appreciate the time and patience of the readers.

Sean Farragher

http://seanfarragher.com
http://byzantium2001.com
http://taximurders.com

Fair enough if your experience is that more readers and writers respond to controversial work, but I don't see where words/ideas like 'alarm' and 'controversy' come into the picture at all, it's more a matter, - as I said under your work, - of individual taste.
Although we're writers here, we're also readers and have our own particular kind of subject matter that interests us. As I said, I personally have no interest what-so-ever in reading explicit writing on the physical act of sex, I'm always impatient for the story itself, I can fill in the sexual parts with my own imagination, (if I didn't have an imagination, I don't suppose I'd be a writer), I need only a single sentence from the writer to do that with. And I guess what I'm suggesting here, is that I can't be the only one who thinks like this. I smile at the thought that while everybody else on WW is fainting, reeling, becoming alarmed, having heart attacks, I'm standing alone in bemusement. Of course that's not the case. I noticed that when I made the simple statement 'it seems like porn to me' your response was 'what's wrong with porn?' (forgive me if I've misquoted you), and I'd never mentioned anything about 'wrong.' So I'll leave you with that thought.
Becca.

Sean

I am a simple man - some would say thick - so I am not looking to enter into an intellectual debate about your work, but merely provide you with a view point of a reader (and not even a follow writer).

Firstly, let me say I support your right to write about whatever you wish in the way you want to. You have told us much about yourself and your childhood in your postings, so (without wanting to be patronizing), I also respect your need to write this as a way of dealing with your past - I assume this, please forgive me if this is wrong.

First point, regarding your postings, you often justify why and what you have written in response to adverse or puzzled comments. In the outside world your work will have to speak for itself, so how will you feel if readers take the work in the wrong way, make incorrect assumptions about its content and you as the author.

This is not some kind of 'now get out of that' question, just a question.

Like I say, I don't believe in censorship and I would rely on the law to prosecute anything that crosses legal barriers. The child/sexual content of your work is hard to stomach and whether it crosses any legal barriers is again something that you will have to deal with.

You will also have deal with anybody that misrepresents your work or uses it as an excuse for the wrong things they do. I'm not suggesting that this should stop you from writing what you want to write, only that I believe you should think about the impact your work has on the outside world.

Regarding your work, I also find it abrasive, difficult to read, confusing and difficult to engage with. I also find it a little repetitive. The violence and sexual tones are often repellent but there is no flipside for me - no dawning or understanding of what you are trying to say.

Here's the bottom line for me - and it's simple and it applies to everything I read, watch, listen to do - what do I take away from this? Does it educate, does it entertain, or does it leave no lasting impression on me at all.

Sean, what do you as the creator hope that I take away from this? This doesn't mean I can't make up my own mind, I just want to know what you hope for your work?

Beadle

Well, it is good to know it isn't just me. To be honest, all I got out of your poem on the recent tsunami was that you probably didn't know anyone directly affected by it, or if you did, you honestly didn't care - and there's me thinking poetry was about empathy.
As I've said elsewhere, I believe in self-censorship - the art of NOT writing about what one knows little or nothing about. I've suffered abuse and torture in the past, and there was nothing enobling about either, nor did the experiences "enhance my art" beyond getting world-weary with those who use it merely to court controversy.
As for sex, too much sexual content swiftly becomes toilet wall rather than high art.
If you really want others to share your viewpoint - which I doubt as I recall you tossing me a reading list so I could think how you think [no thank you] - do not be surprised if most of us decline.

Hey Sean,
I was originally drawn to comment on your work yesterday because of something that Nell said. I, at first took it the wrong way, thinking she was the type that blames violent videogames and R-rated movies for the reason our kids go out and shoot each other. I felt that view needed to be challenged. But after some more clarity, it seems the content was labelled as porn which is an even bolder statement. The same folks who view child pornography are the same folks who, in turn, create it, so in essence, you were being accused as a pedophile. I felt the need to come to your defense because I did not think these were your intentions. I saw the piece as you trying to get inside the head of a girl that has been sexually molested. At times, the commentary/narrative seems adult like and I can see where that makes it a little too fantastical(is that a word, a derivative of fantasy?).

It read like a sequel to Go Ask Alice. Which is now super duper legendary, so keep that in mind.

Following Becca's comments,
Is depth something that grows on trees, or flies with butterflies, or shadows the silhouettes of puppydogs. Romeo o Romeo, where art thou' Romeo?

Peace,
Adam

Silverelli,
I'm glad that you re-thought your assumptions about Nell, that shows depth.

Sean,
Like Beadle, I too support people's right to write what they want. As I support a reader's right not to read. It's that simple isn't it?
Enough now from me, I'm bored with this.
Becca.

Thanks Becca.
No more assumptions from me, promise. I originally assumed that you were "a lady in the streets, freak in the sheets." But I take that back.

Sean,
I think the Michael Jackson saga might be a better connection to make than 9/11 with this. Just an idea.

<Added>

Okay, I'm done, too. I'm crucifying myself here. I should stop.

“Don’t wait for your mother to die.”
I once heard of a creative writing tutor who said this to his students who were producing wallpaper paste. I think we all know what he meant. That inner censor. That little voice asking what our mother would think of what we’re writing. Obviously it has different connotations for Sean than it does for an average son or daughter. I have a great sympathy for anyone who was denied a normal mother/child relationship, although I don’t believe this level of abuse is as prevalent as some sections of society claim.

But that should not be the issue here. This is a community of writers, not moralists. Sean, I think you’re brave to ignore your inner censor. I’ve read some of your work and, I have to say, I don’t like it. I find it vague and disjointed. Normally I try to be more supportive than that but, by your responses, you leave yourself open to this level of feedback. You give no quarter – so don’t expect any.

If you really analyse what’s been said about the particular piece of work in question, you’ll find that you’re missing the point. This argument has developed, not from the comments you’ve received, but from your reaction to them.

If you post work on this site you invite feedback. Don’t throw your teddy out of the pram because it’s not what you want to hear. Your writing could be called controversial. It could also be called paedophilia. Unless you want to keep it in your own personal files, you have to accept that readers will react to extreme writing in extreme ways.

You are putting your writing on a public forum. You have to accept the fallout.

Dee

All your comments are well taken.

I dont believe literature has to entertain or educate. It exists in itself and finds its audience. The Linear story line and simple character setting are one way to write a story or to create a poem.

I can take it as well as give it. And believe it or not I appreciate the time it took all of you to respond in this thread.

First, I agree I don't need to explain after critque as it is perceived as defensive and not an attempt by me to engage you in a conversation about your criticism.

Second, I will continue to post Byzantium but I will not post the two sections that remain that I know are offensive to you and possibly important to the work as a whole. It may very well be that the controversy negatively affects my entire work. As I want your feedback, perhaps I have to give a bit as well. I am looking at the whole poem -- not only the controversy. I can always insert or not the explicit prose sections later.

Third, With the exception of this series, most, if not all of the comments on my other poetry have been exceptional (Poetry IV) and other segements of Byzantium. What does that tell me? Perhaps I am wrong about the material. I need to look at my point of view, and not resist just to resist. Perhaps I in my Republican Irish ways try to turn a room into my room too quickly. I can do that in person but hardly in the UK (that is meant to be a jk)...

Fourth, I do appreciate your time and efforts, and I do listen even when it rankles me. As Byzantium evolves you will read that and perhaps when I am done with the long poem this difficult feed back will be worth it.

I have been at the poetry wars too long to be stifled or censored, but as I have been around I know when I had better listen at least twice before I chart my own way.

<Added>

spelling corrected. critique and segments.

About self censorship. I do not believe a writer should ever censor a work because it may be perceived as dangerous, disrepectful or discourteous. There are times when being dangerous, disrespectful and discourteous are warrented.

ABout Michael Jackson being a better link to 9/11 than my personal life applied to fictional characters. That is an interesting point. MJ has become a Caricature of himself. Yet, that is an interesting idea, and may be incorporated into the general text as MJ is a symptom of American Global Enterprise.

Dee, I do accept the fallout. I am here for the long haul as American truckers say. I am not shy, nor am I afraid to struggle to find the poem that I know exists inside Byzantium. It is a work in progress, and I am not a fool. I listen when words (no matter how painful) speak their own inner censor.

Actually, I was never angry at what was said here about my work. I WAS angry at Liesl's unfair characterization of four years of my life in the ZOETROPE community where I continue to participate. What she wrote was uncalled for, a slander, self serving and irrelevant to the work I presented.

If I could say this, why not just leave that behind now?
Becca.

Sean,
I love the idea of what you say about being able to write anything. If you're writing shorts or poems that don't take 2 to 3 years to complete, I guess the time and risk involved is much less than if you were writing a novel about 'things that people will not tolerate', it's just pragmatism really isn't it?
But people have written about every kind of thing there is to write about through history, it's just that at certain times they put a few gauzes over their work. The dreadful Radclyffe Hall did exactly that, but she lost the court case and her fellow writers were lame in her support, V. Woolf included. Didn't stop 'The Well of Lonliness' selling out though, not that she needed the money, just a writing course.
Becca.

Rebecca, please allow me to ferment before I metamorphose.

I am sorry Rebeeca. My glib semi humerous response was written before your latest gentler post.

I am poor at being Irish. I have a poor sense of humor as one of my best friends (a fabulous fiction writer Ellen Parker) comments. She is the editor of Frigg Magazine. You might want to look at it. http://friggmagazine.com I am the poetry editor.

She is incredibly funny and profound. I am a poet and not as critically adept at fiction as I am with poetry.