Does anyone know if there are any definitions of what constitues copyright on a plot. My understanding is you "can't copyright ideas" - but when does an idea become a plot? Basically, I have an idea for a play which is based in its basic plot outlines on a famous in-copyright book. The characters would all be different, but what would happen to then in its broadest outline would be similar. Then again much of the plot is fairy-tale like and a variation on common fairy tale plot lines to some extent. Any thoughts anyone has about all this would be much appreciated.

You're right, you can't copyright ideas and that includes plots, so you should be safe.


- NaomiM

As I understand it, plots are not a problem. In any case, you are talking about broad outlines. Even if you weren't, i.e. if the plots were similar in greater detail, unless you started using actual words from the other work, you would be quite entitled to produce your own version.

Chris (Not a lawyer!)

using actual words from the other work

Yes, that's plagerism. And it's not allowed to use Characters protected under Trademark, so, eg, having a wizard named Harry Potter, or a cartoon dog names Pluto, wouldn't be allowed, but writing your own version of a wizard boy in a wizard school is fine - although having a plot that's too derivative of something still in the beststeller lists may not find a publisher.
But all authors pick and choose plot devices and plot threads from other writers.


- NaomiM

it's not allowed to use Characters protected under Trademark

I've got Jack Frost as a cameo role in a children's story - do you think that would fall under copyright? I can't imagine characters from folklore would be trademarked - but I could be wrong! I suppose the same must be true of Santa Claus? He pops up in a lot of stories.

Joolz

Thanks everyone. So to take the harry potter example, let's say this is the outline of my play (it isn't of course, but it makes the point), and that is doesn't include any specific names or words directly from harry potter:

a young boy is lonely and miserable living with some distant relatives as his parents died. One day someone tells him he is actually a wizard and he's going to go off the wizard school. He also learns that he is a hero there and that the evil Lord Dark had killed his parents when he was a baby.

etc. etc.

Are we really saying that would be fine in legal terms?

I don't know. I can see your dilemma.
This might interest you though: the other day I did a writing exercise with my students that went as follows:
- Each of them picked a rolled up slip of paper from an envelope. On the paper was written a plot - just a couple of sentences. They were not to show this to anyone.
- I then asked them to write the first paragraph of a short story stemming from this plot.
- Finally, I asked them to read out their paragraphs. Each was, naturally, quite diffferent.
- I then asked them to read out their plot
- In fact, all the slips of paper had been identical. The same plot was written on each one. (It was: They got married, but on the evening of the day she told him she was pregnant, he fell in love with someone else).

The point of this was to show them that it wasn't worth worrying too much about whether their plot was original or not, every individual will come up with a different story no matter what.

I've got Jack Frost as a cameo role in a children's story

He's turned up in at least one Terry Pratchett book, if I remember right. As has the Tooth Fairy (in "Hogfather" and others).

I agree that you can't copyright a plot, but I suspect that if you submitted a story to a publisher which was an obvious crib of a well-known (or even slightly-known) book in print, they might point this out in their rejection letter.

Having said that, I believe an experiment has been done whereby a collection of publishers and agents were sent "sample chapters" from a purported new novel, which was actually a word-for-word extract from a well-known novel with the character names changed. Of the 30 or so recipients of this work, only one appeared to recognise it for what it was.

Alex

Are we really saying that would be fine in legal terms?

Yes.

<Added>

I've got Jack Frost as a cameo role in a children's story - do you think that would fall under copyright? I can't imagine characters from folklore would be trademarked - but I could be wrong! I suppose the same must be true of Santa Claus? He pops up in a lot of stories.

Those are fine too.

Trademarked names have TM next to them in any sort of advertising.

I am certain you will have no legal issues, and depending on the settings and cultural differences, you can completely rewrite an identical plot.

Beauty and the Beast = Phantom of the Opera... think about it
Cinderella stores have been done many times
Practically ever coming of age story has the identical plot.

Watch an episode of Red Dwarf called Carrie. It is a parody of Casablanca. There is a priceless line in there about it being the same old story.

Then think of every romantic comedy ever shown on screen (OK, practically): Boy meets girl, Boy falls in love with girl. Boy gets girl, Boy loses girl. Everyone thinks boy has lost girl forever. Boy gets girl again. Film ends.

And then there is the concept of there only being 7 basic plots to choose from.

So, to cut a long story short, go for it.