I got through reading a short article the other day about Vanity Publishing. It mentioned something along the lines of seeing that Self-Publishing is now a respected form of publishing, some Vanity Publishers are calling themselves Self-Publishers to try and make themselves sound more respected.

I have to wonder about this statement. Now, I myself think Self-Publishing is a good idea (and having done it once before and failed, I have respect for any author that can make a living this way), but my problem is that when I go into any bookstore, I don't see a lot of novels that are self-published, that I know of anyway. In fact, the only two real writers that I can think off the top of my head that really succeeded in self publishing was G.P Taylor and Christopher Paolini (though they are now signed to publishing companies).

So I wonder, is Self-Publishing really that respected now? Does it mean that more bookshops are welcoming self-publishers, or is are they still a little, dare I say it, uneasy about selling books that are from self-published writers?

So I wonder, is Self-Publishing really that respected now?

No.

Does it mean that more bookshops are welcoming self-publishers,

No.

Don't do it unless you already have a ready market for the books - eg, you're publishing a niche-market non-fiction book.
Never do it if you're writing fiction, as the market is already stuffed to the gunnels via the traditional publishing route.



- NaomiM

I think the apparent respectability of self-publishing is only by contrast to the extreme unrespectability of vanity publishing. The advent of PoD has shifted the picture a bit, because it means the vanity publishers don't have to be seen to be demanding vast sums up front. But because there's no editorial control over self-publishing, except what the writer's capable of supplying, to the book trade 'self-published' still says, for better or worse, 'no professional outfit thought this was publishable'.

As you've found, it's next-to-impossible to market or distribute self-published books, most of all fiction, as Naomi says, for a million reasons. Since there's no editorial control over them, bookshops generally aren't interested, unless you, personally, can do a convincing sales pitch about why they should be, and then supply at 40% discount on sale or return. (I know you've got experience of all this, Dwriter, so I'm just saying it for anyone who searches for 'self-publishing' on WW in the future!)

Emma

Well luckily, when I did self publish, I did actually manage to get a few copies in one small bookshop. I think I sold--let me see--about zero copies! (sob sob).

But like I said, anyone who can self publish and do it right, I salute you. Maybe you can tell ME how you did it so that if I ever tried it again, I could do it right this time!

There is no 'right way' to self-publish because the 'right way' is via the traditional publishing route, and to succeed via that route all you have to do is write a publishable book.

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If your measure of success in self-publishing is wrangling a publishing contract with a traditional publisher, then you're going into it for completely the wrong reasons.

I agree with all of the above, but there are other things to consider too. I don't want to place the emphasis entirely on making money/breaking even - writing is about writing - but if you do go into self-publishing you have to think in financial terms or you can easily lose thousands.

Over the years I've grown very against the traditional route, as it's very unfavourable for all but a small band of top-level writers. I was formerly in PR and marketing and know how much bull is offered to aspiring writers (and companies of all kinds) as valid means of promotion in today's market, and TBH 99% of it is useless and just going through the motions. For most, I truly feel that trying to make any kind of headway as a self-publisher against the overwhelming tide of other writers and publishers in the market is almost impossible using traditional means, and yet hundreds are all tenaciously trying to fit down the same path, trying to sell their work in exactly the same way, because they think that the traditional route is the one they should adopt to be seen as valid.

I have 4 self-published titles out at present, all non-fiction and aimed at two very different niche markets. For some lucky reason I was the first to write on two subjects that had simply not been covered before in these markets, so 2 of the books not only do quite well, but they're now accepted 'standard' titles within their field.

Work promoting all 4 is pretty much never-ending, but I do feel that I've managed to perhaps do more for them than any publisher could afford to do to get them noticed. Getting them into niche retailers isn't a problem and they do well, but getting any kind of decent deal with 'regular' retailers is nigh on impossible, and really tends to be far more hassle than it's worth. You can spend days chasing minimal sales of 5-10 books at a time (and then spend months trying to get paid), which ultimately isn't going to make a great deal of profit.

Trying to fit in with the normal retail channels as a self-publishers really isn't the way to get your work noticed, and it can be a tedious process that yields few long-term results. Amazon and others are a complete no-no (and can be painful to deal with), as their required discounts, etc., make it near impossible to do anything but break even through them.

So, for me/us the best way to go was to set up a site selling my own titles. I can make more on one book sold off the site than I can selling 6/10 through someone like Waterstones. I don't have the same weight as a big publisher when looking for standard market reviews in say, national newspapers, but it's still not a problem to get magazine reviews and general coverage for self-published books if they do what they're meant to do.

Sorry, this is longer than I intended - but I'd be happy to answer any questions if I can regarding self-publishing.

ST

ST, that's really interesting (and impressive), and confirms what's often said about self-publishing: that it can work for niche non-fiction books, with a market that's easy to define and relatively easy to reach. And that even then, it takes a lot of hard work, and you have to be in it for the long haul.

For fiction, of course, there is, in a sense, no niche, or not one that's easily found, once you've sold all the copies your friends and family are willing to buy.

Emma

Absolutely Emma, I agree. Self-published fiction is just...well, it's down to luck most of the time if anyone cracks it. The limited promotion you can give your work, unless it's something really startling, is depressing. I've no idea why I'm even thinking about moving into fiction myself.

I'd like to nod and smile and say I'm doing everything right with these books and that I've cracked it, but I really haven't. On the one hand I have two books that are required reading in their markets (one of these markets is massive), but I'm making buttons relatively speaking out of them. I should be selling far more than I am. I'm always learning and having to adapt.

The internet isn't the great selling tool it used to be, and rightfully so. Everyone is wary of hype now, and any hint of a sell will bring a speedy negative reaction, no matter what your product. Sales now seem more dependent on word of mouth validation than at any other time.

ST

I think the main problem with a lot of people going into self-publishing is that they believe that they'll sell enough books to make them financially successful. Sadly, this was my intention when I first attempted self-publishing and I learned the hard way if you think like that you'll fall on your backside faster than Wile E Coyote down a cliff (for those who watch Looney Tunes). Nowadays I'm a little less naive about that, hence why I'm trying the traditional route.

However, I still have all respect for anyone who wishes to give it a try--I would just say to anyone trying it not to expect it to be a "get rich quick scheme".

Well, guess I'd better get back to that list of agents that I've still yet to submit to.

Something that I'd add to the thoughts here about self publishing, none of which I disagree with whole-heartedly.

Blogging is self publishing. I blog, and I know I've found many successful readers that way. I also have a large selection of stories that I've published online, and that I am now considering collecting into a volume and self publishing via lulu or similar, so I have something to sell at readings.

My experience of this is different to most - ie - I have been picked up by a traditional publisher - and I see the self publishing activity as a form of promotion. I give blogs, stories etc away for free, partly because I enjoy it, I like it and I want to, and partly because I know for a fact it promotes my other work.

I have friends who have big publishing deals with larger, mainstream publishers who make chapbooks of their stories on their printers to give away to friends and blog-readers for no other reason than they enjoy it, they want to get work out to an audience that might not be willing to pay (much) for it, that kind of work wouldn't get picked up my a traditional publisher, and because it is self promotion.

I'm all for small-scale self publishing, as long as the person is honest with herself about the quality of the work, the unlikelihood of breaking even on it, and her motives for doing it, it can be an excellent, rewarding way of getting work to an audience and does not mean that the work itself is inferior or not 'good' enough to be published traditionally.

J

Wanted to add - here's a link to what I mean. It has a long and 'respectable' history.

I think it's a bit of a limited view to say that self-published fiction is not respected, full stop. Yes, someone who writes a novel, self-publishes it and then does nothing to promote it, is not going to get very far. But there are writers who have worked hard at promoting their self-published books and gone on to succeed. In SF/Fantasy, for example, check out Scott Sigler, J C Hutchins, Mur Lafferty and Cory Doctorow - the first three started by self-publishing their own podcasted novels, then went on to get deals with main stream publishers. Scott Sigler, in particular, is now a major seller. Cory Doctorow is slightly different, in that he started by being published conventionally, then went on to use the model of first giving away his books for free. All these people have websites/ podcasts that you can check out. Mur Lafferty's 'I should be Writing' podcast has a recent interview with Scott Sigler - but be warned, Mr Sigler spells out that to succeed in this direction, you have to be prepared to put in a tremendous amount of work!

(Apologies, by the way, if I've said all the above before - brain getting a little cardiganised these days - but I sometimes feel old views about this subject tend to get trotted out on this forum as if they're rock-solid truths. But as Carl's and Jenn's posts show, everything changes very fast these days, and it's necessary for us all to try to keep up.)

Terry

I

have 4 self-published titles out at present, all non-fiction and aimed at two very different niche markets. For some lucky reason I was the first to write on two subjects that had simply not been covered before in these markets, so 2 of the books not only do quite well, but they're now accepted 'standard' titles within their field.

THis is the sort of niche market that self-publishing assists. My aunt did a similar thing, self publishing a very well researched tome on native birds in Oxfordshire which sold out it's print run amonst the bird watching fraternity and was requested by a number of libraries.

If you are self publishing fiction, then the only reason to do so would be to keep artistic integrety of the mss and not care if anyone bought it.
There are success stories such as Polly Courtney who has got a publishing deal through Authonomy for her 3rd novel, but she's an atypical subject because she originally had a publisher and agent for he first book, but lost both because she refused to compromise on requested editorial changes, and self-published that and her second novel with a modicum of success. If she'd been a little more mature she'd have had a better and more fruitful writing career by now.

If you are into self-promotion and say 'hang the expense' then you can be 'successful' in self-publishing, if by 'successful' you mean building up a decent number of readers of your work - but it's far easier and cheaper just to write a publishable book.


- NaomiM

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Other niche markets suitable for self-publishing are out of print traditionally published books, or traditionally published authors who already have a following and, for one reason or other, decide to self-publish their future novels.

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And certain types of niche sub-genre fiction, eg, erotic-gay fiction, spirituality, and fan fiction where the readership wants more of the same but, for one reason or other, the original author is not writing it.

If you are self publishing fiction, then the only reason to do so would be to keep artistic integrety of the mss and not care if anyone bought it.

I don't think this kind of definitive statement is totally helpful or even true. For example, another reason to self-publish - as in Scott Sigler's case - is simply because you couldn't get publishers to see the commercial potential of your book. Sigler is essentially a thriller writer and not, as far as I'm aware, particularly bothered about 'artistic integrity'. In fact, when he first podcasts a novel, he then invites people to comment on it, and adapts the book accordingly for later hard copy publication.

Also, promoting one's book isn't necessarily a matter of 'hang the expense'. There is plenty one can do that doesn't cost in terms of money, just time and effort.

I'm also not so sure it's 'far easier and cheaper just to write a publishable book'. If it was that easy, everyone would be doing it. Also, it's not particularly easy to anticipate what publishers are looking for (especially when they don't know themselves a lot of the time). And even if you do have a book published, decent promotion these days is often down to the author in any case.

Terry

Another exception to test the rule is a writer I recently met who has self-published three fiction titles and sold a few thousand copies for all of them. Like Terry and SecondThoughts have indicated though, the work of promotion has been pretty much full time.

In this case, a key element of her marketing was a tie in with a charity who take a portion of her book sales... which meant she could get onto a local radio station, yap on about the worthy cause for a while, follow it up with a bit about the book, and then call on every bookshop in the local area to ask them to take six copies.

It seems to have worked and everyone is happy enough. But it doesn't sound like an ideal route for the faint of heart or weak of will...

G