Hi everyone

Im asking a question that may have been answered a zillion times before so I do apologise if that's the case.

My novel keeps refering to the lines of a very famous 80's song. It is integral to the plot.

How do I stand on this? Do I have to get copywrite first or would a publisher/agent sort this out for me at a later date if I was lucky enough to be taken on!

Many thanks in advance

Eve

Eve, I'm in the same position. Using Led Zeppelin's Stairway To Heaven. So look forward to the answer!
Susiex

Hi Susie
Mine's Tainted Love - so know that its Marc Bolans girlfriend who wrote it.
Just not sure what you are allowed to use! and do you worry about it now or later!

Eve

The bad news is that you must get copyright clearance before it's published. A publishing contract will usually state that it's your responsibility to get and to pay for it, and song lyrics are notoriously expensive, and hard to get permission for it. The usual advice is to start getting permission as soon as possible, even at least finding the copyright holder and enquiring what would be involved before you've landed a contract. Prices will take account of likely print-runs and how many countries the book will sell in. Once you have the contract you have to move fast, since once the copy-editing and typesetting process begins to roll it becomes complicated and expensive to take the references out if you can't get permission or can't afford the fees.

The slightly better news is that the Society of Authors has a good booklet about it, though I have to say that as I remember the advice adds up to 'if you possibly can, don't use 'em'.

http://www.societyofauthors.org/publications/

Emma

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Which isn't to say it's always like that - I got clearance for free for one quote, tho' I've never tried for song lyrics.

Thanks Emma - but I take it it is OK to refer to the song Tainted Love? (Just perhaps not quote specific lines)

Eve

Thanks, Emma. (sigh)
Susiex

I take it it is OK to refer to the song Tainted Love?

Yes, there's no copyright in titles - anyone can quote them.

Emma

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Tainted Love's a great song, too!

I vaguely recall that a tiny fragment of a song- half a line tra-laed here and there doesn't need copyright. Something to do with it being part of common parlance.
(How useless is that? Vague, unverified recollection... just trying to offer a glimmer of hope, or save you money if you check with a copyright lawyer.)
C


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My husband's just told me there's such a thing as 'fair usage' which doesn't need copyright, but how much that is, is not defined in law.

I think I'm right in saying that 'fair usage' only applies to 'quoting for the purposes of review or academic discussion' - so you're okay quoting in essays and the like. But there's also 'fair dealing' and one of them is American, and a bit more liberal that ours, but doesn't apply in the UK, and I can't remember properly.

Either way, they don't apply to trade publishing of fiction, where anything that's quoted as from a song counts, unless, maybe, it is a line that has come into common parlance - what has? 'The hills are alive...'? Dunno, maybe. But you really, really don't want to be standing in court defending that. Nor do you want your publisher to have to pulp the entire print-run because you didn't do your homework...

Emma

I can see why you wouldn't want to stand in court defending that... but then, if you managed to get some publicity for it, perhaps it could do a Da Vinci Code and actually help book sales?

(I'm sure that doesn't happen very often...)

Deb

This is a similar question to the other one about using the phrase 'strip me down' - except there's a crucial difference. Using song lyrics that clearly come from a particular song and couldn't possibly come from any other source IS a breach of copyright. That's because by reproducing song lyrics you're using a particular author's particular creative execution.

I know of several authors who've tried to do this and had to jetison the song lyrics because getting permission proved just too difficult and/or expensive.

However, song lyrics are freely available all over the internet, and I doubt if all the web site owners reproducing them have paid copyright. Which does make it seem unfair that we writers can't use the odd chorus or two in a novel.

Well, I think I've said this before when we've discussed this, but in H&M the female MC is listening to a tape in a Little Chef at Christmas, and there are sleigh bells ring-tingle-tingling and I think I even mention the Ronettes by name. And then Noddy Holder (again, mentioned by name) urges her to 'look to the future' and she fears it really has 'only just begun'... I raised all this with my editor, copyright-wise, and she said this kind of thing is not a problem at all - just snippets of reference to lyrics, even of identifiable songs, embedded in text is fine, and doesn't require consent, she said.

On the other hand, the first draft of MtLL contained a (ironically schmaltzy) funeral poem by a recently deceaesed American author - quoted verbatim, so it would need copyright permission -and it was all too complicated so my editor suggested i just take it out and write my own crappy sentimental poem instead.

Rosy

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And I'm certain Emma's right that titles are OK.

I recently had a short story rejected on the grounds of it using six lines from Don't You Forget (About Me) by Simple Minds.

I was assured this is no problem for a title of a story, which it is, but that the lyrics are certainly a problem without authorisation and could potentially result in an expensive law suit should Simple Minds decide to sue.

Now, I've heard so many different takes on this, I don't know what to advise. Some think it's 'fair usage' and therefore isn't a problem, others reckon you'll wind up in court. To be honest, I tend towards the former and not the latter opinion, because I just can't see anyone going to all that trouble just for a short story or a bit in a novel, unless it is derogatory to the artist in question.

JB

Hi JB,
I wonder how much it actually costs to clear the use of song lyrics? I've recently cleared 200 words from one of the Narnia chronicles and was quoted £50 + VAT - which was a lot less than I expected.
I've got a dilemma with my novel, because I begin it with an extract from a song (which, as has been said, may put off agents/publishers before they even read the extract). The irony is that the lyrics are not real - one of my MCs is a rock musician and this is 'his' work - but you don't find that out 'till later. Am I shooting myself in the foot?
Susiex

I've heard that permissions on song lyrics are notoriously expensive – one author, apparently, was asked for considerably more than his publisher was offering as an advance.

There’s no getting away from the fact that it’s the author’s responsibility to obtain permission from the copyright holder, so it’s best to do that as early in the process as possible. If a song is integral to the plot of your novel, you need to sort this out urgently before you invest any more time in something you might have to cut and rewrite. And the more famous the song, the more likely people will recognise it and – I would guess – the more unlikely it is you’ll get permission to use it without doling out a lot of cash.

Dee


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Susie, if you've written the song yourself, the copyright is yours so you don't have a problem.