Anj

Not me doll-face, you're too clever for me. I took day off with massive hangover so might go and visit me kids for an hour or so.

Lots of love

Dave

Phew. Well, I don't know if it's refreshing or depressing to see that the war of the sexes is still alive and kicking on planet Earth.

Getting back to the award thing, and away from turn-of-the-century-before-last ramblings, I'd like to know what happens if a male writer writes under a female psuedonym, or vice versa? Would it be possible to 'Tootsie' the Orange award?

JB

I've read this and want to say, as a man (though a sorry excuse for one) no problem with Female Only awards. Why care so much anyway? If you're so bothered, as some seem to be, do what someone advised re Gentlemen Clubs - set up a MALE ONLY AWARDS, or campaign for one.

This has already been raised, and it's widely acknowledged that attempting to exclude women from an award is seen as discriminatory.

I can see your point IB, I just don't agree. All things aren't equal. A white, middle-class male is more likely to get a good job, earning above £25k a year than a black male or woman, or a disabled person. Not always is that to do with talent.

In its 33-year history the Booker has honoured 12 female authors including Iris Murdoch, Anita Brookner and Arundhati Roy.

The Whitbread, has only given two women the top prize since 1985.

And the Nobel Prize for Literature has seen just nine women receive the honour in its 103-year history, the last being Polish author writer Wislawa Szymborska in 1996.

That's all just to do with talent, is it?

Is the Orange Prize discriminatory? No; it's just a fiction prize for female authors. It helps promote female written fiction - so what? What exactly is your problem with that? Is doesn't pretend to be anything other than it is, does it?

However, the others might be because they are open to everyone and mainly men win it!

And I have a feeling if it were the other way around, so would your argument be...just a feeling

JA, newsflash: a woman won the Nobel Prize this year:

http://nobelprize.org/literature/laureates/2004/

I'm with you all the way though on the injustice of men being paid more than women for equal work, but that's another issue.

Adele.

Oh well ALT, my BBC article is clearly out of date and I must get a refund on the licence!!!

Still, point still valid I hope

Yes, shock horrrors! Heaven forbid anyone should ever propose that men are better writers than women!

Naturally, I do not believe such a thing, and think talent is pretty much a sexless entity that anyone can tap into. However, I use the above to illustrate what a ridiculously PC age we live in.

I stand by my comment of before. A literary award for women only is sexist and discriminatory. To imply that it would be 'just a feeling' if the shoe were on the other foot, is, in my humble opinion, pointless and hypothetical. If there were a 'men only' literary award, I am pretty sure there would be female voices raised in outrage.

So why is it ok the other way around? Why do people strive so hard for equality, just to flout those same ideals when it suits them? It is farcical, and makes a mockery of the very term 'equality'.

JB

S'ok wax - not denying you your opinion; wasn't getting angry either. Just putting forward the other side of the argument.

As I say, women only, men only, people under 3 feet only doesn't bother me in the slightest. That is bothers you is fine by me, but surely I am allowed to put forward what I think...please?

Doesn't make me PC...or if it does, don't consider that to be an insult...

I lvoe everyone - actually, that's really not true!

take care and vivacious debate is a good thing people.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion. I'm not angry either, I just don't fully understand why so many complain about a glaring lack of equality in today's society, and yet then insist on segregating themselves into minorities and catergories - each with a different set of rights.

I think literature should be kept as a 'free' arena, ungoverned by sex, age, race etc. Let the work speak for itself, without ridiculous 'framing' exercises of the artist's condition.

JB

10 Oct: Chroma - Beauty
New gay literary magazine chroma is seeking submissions for on the theme of beauty. Prose, poems, and artwork by lesbian and gay writers on the theme of Beauty are welcome. Send to: Shaun Levin, editor, Chroma, PO Box 44655, London N16 0WQ

So what about this one? (from the pulp.net site) if I submitted something would I have to prove i was a lesbian????

Elspeth

equality would be good if there was equality...IB and Wax are good people - not everyone is...and some people that make the decisions are still not the best people...I think the facts speak for themselves and I can't entertain the thought that men are better writers. If anything, psychology tells us it's the other way around...but then I hate psychology (I did a minor in psychology - really, really pointless)

I like the argument though - tis good fun.

Still think it's simply a prize for women and nothing to do with discrimination. It's just a prize that helps promotes female authors.

I have another argument, though trying to frame is correctly though I'll only put it in if the debate is healthy and mature and people are interested. ALso, i have a mind that doesn't mind changing

One thing I do wonder about these prizes, the Booker, the Whitbread, the Nobel - who judges them? Are the panels equally split between men and women?

If they are primarily composed of men and are choosing primarily male winners, it would be hard to say that they are unbiased, even if the bias is simply that men may gravitate naturally towards the issues and style of other men.

Which would make a case for the Orange Prize, although personally I still feel it does women a disservice.

If, however, the panels equally represent both genders, and still choose primarily male winners, that suggests that men are better writers. But if, as JB says (and I agree with him), talent is equally divided, that's a nonsense. So why does it keep happening?

Bad luck? Perhaps. To be honest, I can't be bothered figuring that one out, because at rock bottom, what the fuck does any of it matter? Why do writers need prizes anyway? We're not saving lives. We're doing what we love to do, and if an author is lucky enough to achieve the esteem of publication and get paid for it too, isn't the squabbling over prizes a bit grotesque?

Andrea

Well said Andrea.

Elspeth - as for the lesbian/gay thing, yes, I include this too as ridiculous. Does one have to be gay in order to write a gay story? Of course bloody not!

This is an interesting debate. I can see how a prize might help promote an otherwise overlooked gem, but literature is such a wide arena and so so so subjective (you might have loved 'Lovely Bones', others hated it), so how can these all sweeping decisions about a book's 'worthiness' be made in the first place?

JB

I was reading an article recently by someone - sorry, can't remember his name - who is a judge of this year's Booker Prize. His novel was rejected by 56 publishers and then went on to be nominated for the Booker Prize.

Perhaps his was one of the gems brought to attention? (Personally, couldn't say as I haven't read it.)

But it goes to show how very subjective it all is, and I doubt the criterion for judging would stand much scrutiny.
I have picked up so many of these books only to throw them back down unfinished that I'm clear the criteria aren't ones I'd apply.

If I was going to instigate a discriminatory prize, mine would be to encourage working class authors (and I say this as someone who doesn't consider "middle class" a dirty word) who are the ones hugely under-represented in all of this, whether they're male, female, gay, straight, black, white, Asian .... Seems to me Booker v Orange is primarily male and female graduates squabbling for more than they already have.

Could be though that the "working classes" who represent the majority of the reading public couldn't give a flying fuck who won the Booker Prize; and the writers couldn't give a flying fuck about winning it.

Take care
Andrea