I have just read an upload from another member which is truly awful in every sense of the word! Now I know there are those of you whe would scorn me for even posting this much but it is terrible.

They have stated that they can take whatever criticism we care to throw at it. Now I'm not simply going to post that it's rubbish, I would of course offer suggestions, but I don't think I could do this without stating outright how awful it is.

I just wanted peoples opinions on this. Please don't slate me or bother going on about subjectivity. I know this but sometimes I think it just needs to be said plainly and honestly.

Anyway let me know

Geoff

Oh god! Is it mine???

It is isn’t it? Isn’t it? Eh???

I hope not.

All I can say is – go with your gut feelings. If this person claims to want shit then give them shit – constructive shit, obviously (and gentle shit if it is mine!) but you have to accept what they say.

Dee.

Geoff --

You could just focus your criticism and zero in on a thing or two. Any constructive criticism would be a help.

Ani

Geoff

I was told that one of the ways of delivering feedback is to give it in the form of a 'sandwich'. Start with something positive, give them the negative bits (if there are any), and end with more positive stuff.

I suppose this only works if you can find something positive to say. But if the person has said 'Go on give it to me! I can take it!' and there is nothing positive about the piece, then I guess you have to dispense with the bread, and just give them the negative filling! Assuming, of course, that your negative comments are delivered in a constructive way.

I have to say, that's easier said than done! And it's at that point that many 'readers' will choose to say nothing.

But that doesn't help the writer, does it!

Regards

John

Geoff, having outed your dilemma the next few people whose work you comment on will probably have read this thread and realize what's happening. This is all very public. Having said that, and speaking generally, I don't believe I've ever read a piece of work on site that is so dire that absolutely nothing good can be found to say about it. And to take a piece of work apart and mention every single point that needs work could be too much for someone to take in at once, and might make them give up altogether. Who knows what their life is like? They may be newly single, on benefits, unable to work because they're suffering from depression, and writing is their only lifeline. I know some others here disagree with me, but I think of WW as a greenhouse for the nurture of plants in all stages of their growth and development. Some are tougher than others and can take the weedkiller, others will be damaged by it. The trouble is that we can't always tell which is which. Telling someone that their work is awful is not constructive; it would be better to mention any good points and then say the piece needs a fair amount of work and point them in a direction to start on that work. It is possible to be honest without being brutal.

<Added>

Reading my post through again, and in case there's any misunderstanding, I meant 'weedkiller' to refer to those drastic and negative comments that we've discussed before on other forums, rather than to honest and constructive criticism.

Geoff,

To some extent I go along with gentle Nell, there is no place for brutal or truly hurtful expressed opinions - which would be subjective and may even be misplaced.

I have long felt that if the aim of the writer is to eventually publish, then the very best help would be an honest albeit harsh critique. We do not see enough of this on WW.

However there are two fundamental points to bear in mind. The first is that no matter how good you may think you are as a writer or a critic, your comments are predominantly subjective. The second is that to write the sort of criticism you suggest, demands from you the highest creative talents in wording the comments.

This calls for the skill of a Diplomat as well as a top P.R. expert.

Perhaps the most important point is the attitude of the criticised writer towards the person who slates their efforts. If the writer has respect for the critic then, however harsh, it will probably be regarded as being 'helpful'... but, like your saying that we do have 'poor' writers on WW, I think we also have some very poor critics.


Len

Well said Len and Nell! I strongly feel that harsh, honest criticism can be taken well by the writer as long as it is constructive. We are all here to learn and it is only by digesting advice by others that we can improve our writing. We put work on the site not for unlimited praise or for an ego boost, but to improve it. It can be difficult to be told that your work has little going for it but if a writer is to succeed and keep writing, s/he needs a thick skin.
Sue

I agree with Nell and Len, many times I've thought something I've read or watched was dire and absolutely awful and it's gone on to win awards and be recommissioned. Proving that the process if very subjective and says more about me than the piece itself.

I agree with all who have said that any criticism should be constructive, with the goal of helping the writer make that particular piece of writing better. But I also agree with the impetus behind Geoff's original question -- there are going to be works posted here that we (subjectively) believe to be aweful.

Silence is one way of handling it -- you need not comment at all, if you feel you are truly turned off by a piece. Or simply say the one or two things that, hopefully, you believe the piece does well and leave it at that.

As to stating how awful something is -- you have to ask yourself, though, why you would want to do it? How can it help make the writing better? or is it some small act of revenge for bruised subjective sensibilities? As critics, I think we need to ask ourselves why we feel the need to give a particular critique -- is it to help the other writer, or to amuse ourselves?

But -- all that said -- I really do wish that "Go on I can take it!" held more weight on WW. Don't post it if you don't want people to spend time giving you in-depth or possibly hard criticism. And don't attack or begrudge someone who has taken you at your word and taken time out of their busy day to give you honest feedback.

I only post it when I think a work of mine really needs a good going over before it can be any better -- and I always appreciate when someone takes the time to have a go. I'd love it if more people took the "Go on I can take it!" serious, both as writers and critics... or maybe we need an even stronger indication, like: "I've got thicker skin than an aligator so thrash away!!"

Okay, that was more than a tuppence -- done now,

Smith


<Added>

oh, I meant take it "seriously" -- I really did pass school, honest...

Geoff

I think you should put your money where your mouth is my friend. As Nell astutely points out - whoever it is will know just by keeping track on your comments!

The thing is, who's to say someone doesn't think your stuff is truly awful in every sense. Are you prepared for the same kind of feedback? If so then go for it. I'd be interested in reading the comments and the piece, unless it's mine, in which case I will enjoy reading the comments anyway.

I wouldn't give a stuff personally but the thing is you never really know on a website do you? You may just ruin someone's confidence etc etc so it is a tricky one.

I reckon just make sure it stays "constructive" but remember it is fine to dislike something!

Regards

Dav

I'm 33 now, or 34, one of the two, but I'm lucky to still have some pieces I wrote as a kid. I have a few short stories and one novel that I wrote when I was thirteen. - Woah, don't be impressed by that. They are all garbage. The novel was a fighting fantasy book, mechanically correct, but terrible in its content. I couldn't write for toffee yet I was convinced that I was going to make a million.

When I was fifteen I sent a short story off to a writers' circle - I couldn't go myself because of school and general fear. The story was rubbish (I still have that one too) but the response was very positive.

If this website was available when I was fifteen then I would have definitely joined, and would probably have lied about my age, and hoped like hell for some help.

Being crap isn't the end - that's how we all start.

Colin M

I'm like Colin. I incessantly wrote crap as a child and a teenager. Truly awful. I like to think I'm better now that I can see what crap it was from a distance!

That said, the one and only rejection letter I ever received - ooh I realise that isn't coming across right -- I have only ever sent out one piece, when I was ten years old -- well the one and only rejection letter I have ever received was very nice and encouraging.

It might be helpful if, on people's profiles, they gave some information about how accustomed they are to letting other people read and criticise their work. It would help us to be more sensitive if appropriate......

Although I do hope that people will be very straighforward with my work. If someone doesn't tell me what they think doesn't work, or whst seems unpolished, or whatever, I will either have no suspicion or else continue to doubt whether somethnig works....... Feedback can be so very, very helpful.

Ani

I understand - but don't fully agree with - the point of view that if you feel a piece has absolutely no positive merit then making no comment is an option.

From the author's point of view, that can only be of value if they know how many people have read their piece - and can see how many readers have chosen not to leave any comment. Perhaps a counter attached to each piece could indicate how often it had been read?

Silence is no feedback at all if the writer has no idea that the silent critic has read their piece of work.

John

Geoff, I sympathise, I really do - I have exactly the same problem with most of the stuff that gets sent to me, and I'm a chicken when it comes to the truly dire. Most of the time I either do a standard rejection without being specific or I make a very general criticism that's not too harsh.

I agree that it's difficult when you don't know the person in question or their present circumstances, but I also agree that the mixed-bag of views on criticism is something that I find frustrating on the site. Of course, criticism must be constructive and not offensive. And of course I understand that the site's environment is supposed to be nurturing. But Smith makes an excellent point - you should only use the 'Go On I Can Take It' option if you really mean it. That was the whole point of it, to give guidance so that we wouldn't be fretting about someone's experience or circumstances, but could trust them to know what they could handle.It was supposed to negate this very question, and it clearly hasn't worked if people - both writers and critics - aren't taking it seriously.

There are a million ways a writer can be more explicit about the level of criticism they want (if they felt the need), apart from the Go On I Can Take It button. Yes, you could add something to your profile, or you can make a note at the top of the piece when you load it up or you could say something in the 'Introduce Your Work' forum.

But I admit that if I can't find anything good to say then I might not say anything. And if I do comment I always remind the writer that it's only one person's opinion. Naturally all such things are entirely subjective, and I hope WW members remember that my comments are affected by my job, and therefore my comments may have more of an angle on the publishing possibilities than anything else.

It's clear that different people use this site for different reasons, but I think if people want an honest opinion you should respect their request and give it to them (respect being the operative word here). Otherwise you're insulting their intelligence and patronising them.

Katie

As a variant of the above, never take away a dream unless you can replace it with another one. Honesty is never misplaced so long as it is helpful.

Mike