Perhaps I should also add after my recent exchanges with Sammy, that if reading books by my hero, Tom Wolfe, makes your eyes hurt, then you may not like my novel either. But then again you may. Who knows? Why not try it and see?

Adele.

<Added>

Here it is: http://www.writewords.org.uk/archive/10255.asp#63688

Dav, since I know you agree with me on the power of positive thinking, perhaps I should share with you another snippet from the report, on which I'm trying to focus:

"For me, this is a readable - sometimes engaging - account of a newsworthy story by a promotable author."

However, as I said above, she then goes on to say how much she dislikes the central character. Is it just me, or is there an inherent contradiction in finding a story engaging yet disliking the protagonist.

I'm confused (but still editing).

Adele.

I'd like to throw this question open to everyone, can you find a book engaging and yet dislike the protagonist (who is not a deliberate anti-hero/heroine)? I'm scratching my head for examples of times I've felt that, but I can't think of any.

Any thoughts?

Adele.

What about the recent Orange prize winner 'We need to talk about Kevin' by Lionel Shriver? I found Eva fascinating and engaging but not particularly likeable although she has enough redeeming features to not be a pure anti heroine. I think it must be the case that the more honest you are about a character the less chance there is that he or she will be seen as 'likeable'

Jane

Thanks, Jane. I haven't read that book, but find your comment encouraging.

Other people who've read my book like the character very much. But then most of them are people with City backgrounds, so share many of her values. However, my friend in non-fiction publishing also likes the character, and I guess the agent I've been working with must do too, or I can't imagine he would have invested his time in the project.

I don't for sure know who wrote the report I mention (although I can guess), but I don't think it's someone who has ever worked in the City, or who would ever consider doing so, given her comments.

Surely, though, publishers must want books which appeal to readers other than themselves. Or am I being hopelessly naive?

Adele.

Ads I dunno why YOU'D think Helen is a dislikable protaganist. Well, I know you don't so I say screw this woman, not literally, but honestly, what is she trying to say?

That snippet is the teller, she wouldn't say that if she wasn't thinkin it, only maybe the next step in her head is "Okay, so how do we market it?" and her gripe is with Helen.

Maybe this is coz she is "jealous" (dunno if that's the right word really, but...) of a central character that she may find kind of threatening. If the character is stronger than the reader would be in that situation, then perhaps the reader can't relate to her so much. Maybe that's the crux of it. So, if you're reading The Hobbit or something, its easier to identify with Bilbo Baggins coz he's living in a world of pure fantasy, than it would be a character in a "real" situation. Coz, if you were in it yourself and suspect you'd be different, the character seems a bit more distant. But that's no reason to change from the authors POV, coz you cannot possibly cater for everyone, so you have to construct the characters you feel you know best.

Does that make any sense? Maybe this woman feels threatened by the fact Helen doesn't stand there and take the abuse from the male dominated environment, then prove them all wrong by, I dunno, taking over Heidelburg Investments or whatever, but instead she does what should be done, takes them to the cleaners. This doesn't sit well, maybe, with this woman coz she thinks "oh well, surely this would be a stronger girl if she took care of herself".

However, if her life is spent being put on a pedestal by the men around (not saying it is, just an example!)or works in a place not so male dominated (i.e. publishing??? I know all industries are pretty much male dominated at the top, but...) then she could never possibly relate to Helen's predicament.

You, obviously having worked in that environment, can and so Helen is doing completely the right thing. And so are you by not changing her. The telling thing is that comment about it being commercial and you marketable - I'd take 100% positive from that, coz it sounds like they'll be gagging for it when its ready!

God I'm sorry, that is almost unintelligible! Hope it makes some kind of sense.

And yeah, I'd definitely snog Helen! She's a cool character, my kind of girl, we could bust up them dastardly City types together!

I'd snog her face off! Especially with all that money she'd have from the tribunal

Adele,

Have you read 'Gone with the Wind'? The book - Pulitzer Prize winner 1935 - is far better than the film although Scarlett is even more dislikeable if that's possible. She has to be one of the most dislikeable heroines in any book; she is an obnoxious sister, dreadful daughter and wife, a poisonous friend, the worst mother, a businesswoman with no scruples whatsoever. She is obsessed with money, completely self-centered, has absolutely no sense of humour and yet you can't help but be behind her all the way. She has so much gumption that you can't help but admire her (begrudingly at times).

As for the comments you have received, I obviously can't comment on their relevance to your particular work but my own experience of feedback is that when a reader tells you that there's something wrong they are almost always right. It's the job of the writer to figure out what exactly is wrong and how to fix it.

Ashlinn

"...when a reader tells you that there's something wrong they are almost always right"

Surely it depends on who is reading? How can you possibly work like that? I don't get that at all. If a reader told me there was something wrong I'd look into it, but if I didn't agree I wouldn't change it and they could maybe go and read something else? Coz if that is their attitude, why are they reading in the first place, coz they clearly don't like the book?

And I don't mean that in a snotty way, I'm well up for taking criticism, especially from people I trust to know more than me, but what you are saying is sheer craziness in my point of view, Ashlynn.

I've had a quick look at your opening chapter and I think it is well written, fast paced with many good one liners. It's possible some of the negative comments about Helen are because the overall question or purpose of the novel doesn't appear in the first chapter and so it may look as though it is simply a case of 'poor Helen couldn't make a fortune in the city like she wanted to' which will not endear her to everyone. I think what I'm trying to say is that novels as opposed to 'reporting' have characters on journyes through some stage of life, and we the readers see the questions posed through their eyes. I think we need a hint of what Helen will learn about both the pursuit of money and the interpretation of sexuality in contemporary society. Otherwise there is a danger that it may just become an account of the injustices that a 'know it all' Helen has suffered which may not be enough to make the reader want to share her story for the following chapters even if you keep up the good work with the wit and sharp writing ! I don't think you need to downplay her ambiton or make her more vulnerable just to make her 'likeable' but just that we have to see what there is in Helen that needs to be challenged and not just her own (thoroughly entitled to) challenging.

Jane

Dav, thanks for your supportive input. I want to clarify that it's been really useful for me to get this report, as it's written from a perspective that is very different to my own. However, I have a, probably unfortunate, tendency to analyse everything I read and wonder why the person said what they did. I don't know the person who wrote this, so I don't know their thinking, or whether I'm interpreting what they've written as they intended, and that's frustrating.

Ashlinn, no I haven't read Gone With the Wind, but saw the film on Boxing Day and loved it. Yes, Scarlett is a little madam, but she overcomes so many setbacks and disappointments that, like you, I was rooting for her all the way. Just think what she could have achieved if she'd been a man! As for taking advice, I promise, I've listened to everything Mr Agent has said and have followed his instructions to the best of my ability. However, as Dav rightly implies, not everyone's opinion will be the same and you can't please everyone. The last thing I want is to end up with a book that I don't like.

Jane, your comments are very prescient and uncannily like the report (did you write it???). Yes, I'm well aware that on it's own, well-paid woman loses job will evoke a reaction of "so what?" from many people, but there is much more to the book than that, I promise!

Thank you all for your thoughts. It's all good grist to the mill.

Adele.

Davey,

Saying something is wrong and liking something are two entirely different things. There are lots of books and authors I don't like but that doesn't mean the book doesn't 'work'.
If on the other hand a reader tells me that something of mine doesn't work then I listen very carefully. Readers are very perceptive and instinctive. Often they don't know themselves why something is wrong but their gut reaction is telling them that there's something off. That's why I think a writer needs to listen not only to the words and their content when getting feedback but to the emotions behind them. It's so much easier to say 'great stuff' than to say 'I didn't like this part because...'. Critical readers are the best, the ones really worth listening to, in my opinion. Just like it's much easier to say 'sour grapes' rather than try to delve down and find out the point underneath the comment.

Sorry this is so wordy. It's hard to explain because taking on board feedback is not an exact science.

Ashlinn

No I didn't write it - what a great job to have though, just criticising other people's work all day! Seriously it is easier to criticise in either a negative or positive way than it is to write anything yourself. It may well be that your negative reviewer has never written a novel herself which puts you way ahead by a long chalk. It's to your credit that you have agonised over the advice as many would just dismiss criticism out of hand unless it's what they want to hear, but it's your book and your character and your way of getting the message out so it's time to move on - and get chapter two uploaded!

Jane

No don't worry Ashlynn I know exactly what your saying, and I think we probably agree deep down!

I just disagree with the idea of making the reader the customer who "is always right" - we're not talking about working in Dixons, after all.

Soz if I'm not much help Ads. I'm probably missing something vital in all this, but ultimately Jane is right, you should move on. I'm not saying the lady who reviewed it is wrong, but don't take other people's opinions on the actual characters too seriously, coz they don't know them yet, do they? I think things like, structure, modern writing techniques like showing not telling and advice on marketability etc is the kind of stuff that can be definitely pinned down by an expert, but the characters are no-one's to create except yourself!

I'd still snog HC though.

Jane, you're right, those who can, do etc. However, when I first read the report, it left me feeling that I'd been wasting my time, doing it badly (and what a lot of time it's been), and that the book was destined for the shredder, and I would have to get used to saying, "Would you like fries with that?" Still, I'm continuing to work on it, just in case.

Dav, of course your comments are helpful. And after all Helen's been through, she could probably do with a good snog

Thanks again,

Adele.

I know how she feels

The only thing that worries me about all this is that you say yourself "...it left me feeling that I'd been wasting my time" and you just cannot let yourself think like that.

Its a massive undertaking, writing a book, and even more massive is the part when you have to look at yourself, after that first draft, and be honest. Take the criticism, put it into practice if you feel it is right, but don't get down about it, and don't you dare ever think about giving up, coz that's what seperates the writer from just being a reader.