I just uploaded a poem called "Wanderers," after reading an article called "Criticism: how much can you take" from Mslexia (Spring 2001).

Speaking of her first outings in poetry, writer Jane Holland says, "I receive no concessions [from readers] for being a sensitive and easily hurt new writer. Nor did I expect any. It was useful and honest criticism I wanted." And she got it. And she felt that even the hardest to hear critiques of her work made her a better writer.

"Honest criticism is the stuff good writers are made of. And the more it hurts, the better is is for you. So tougen up and read on..."

Well -- okay -- I take her at her word and invite anyone with time and inclination to gander at "Wanderers" (not the best poem to ever cross the gaze of humanity) to have a go.

Trust me, nothing you say will be taken amiss -- this poem in in a state of "it can only get better," so... I'm all ears.

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(first self-critique: don't post at 3am while up with insomnia... forgive the typos, but I think the above is still intelligible).

Hi Skeetr,
I've had a look at your poem, but I have little or no appreciation of how one may offer constructive criticism. I must admit that it sounded like poetry to my ignorant ears!

However, what you have written above and the quote you include must help ALL writers; the ability to accept criticism in a truly positive way should be one of creative qualities claimed by any writer.

We can simply reject most criticism or pick out those comments that we think may apply to our work. However if we learn just one thing during this process then we become better writers.

Thanks for this.

Len

This also refers (in my mind, anyway!) back to an earlier post I made about a 'checklist' for crits. I don't think that there should be an obligatory list that everyone should refer to, but I do know that when I am reading something withthe intentionof providing helpful feedback, I find that sometimes my mind just goes numb and scrambled and I'm left useless.

I also wonder at times whether my feedback simply reflects my own taste.

I want to be a better critiquer (is that a word?) as at present I think I'm crap. That's whyI was hoping to build up a list of things to think about / look at when critiquing someone's work. I should add that some very good suggestions have been made on that thread.

Ani (the bad critter!)

I'm glad the quote above struck others the way it did me. Yes, it is lovely to be praised but our work and the work of others we admire surely requires that be use the WW forum to become good readers and critics of other works, as well as better writers of our own. I too hope I'm getting better at that exercise.

Ani -- while I agree that slavish adherence to lists can be stultifying, I do think they are a helpful place to begin (in my mind anyway) thinking about how to give constructive feedback.

I just found the following simple list from an online forum for teaching poetry to children that I found to be very helpful. I've got it posted next to my computer and refer to it when I read my own and others work:

So here you are - the 5 (or more) Ws:
WHAT - is happening in the poem?
WHO - is speaking the poem? (there could be more than one speaker)
- who is the poem about and/ or who appears in the poem?
(there could be more than one person)
- to whom is the poem addressed?
(there could be more than one addressee)
WHERE - is the poem being spoken?
- do the events in the poem take place?
(there could be more than one place)
- is the poem being read?
WHEN - is the poem being spoken?
- are the events in the poem taking place?
(there could be more than one period in time)
- is the poem being read?
WHY - has the poem been written?

Anyway -- it may have been made for kids, but it helps me. I think that kind of thing is a beginning for me anyway... (aaah, but now when I make comments on other poet's works, they shall see my wily methods at play! )

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And here's the more grown up list I've compiled from reading a slew of how-to boos, that is posted next to the computer as well. It's a bit more 'mature' sounding, but I don't think any more helpful to me as a critic/reader than the children's list is -- must be how my mind works --

But anyway, again, all such lists are debatable as to their usefulness -- but this is just for illustration as to the kind of helpful tools for both writing and reading:

What is prized in contemporary poetry?

-- sophisticated handling of rhythm
-- deft orchestration of content, stylistic devices and rhythm
-- subject matter or content with gravitas and/or contemporary resonance
-- complex technical unity of sound (i.e., astute orchestration of rhyme, assonance, alliteration, repetition, dissonance, etc.)
-- the stamp of individual style: fresh articulation; use of an innovative idiom of sentiment; distinctive deployment of style, form and design – (as opposed to stereotype, facile sentimentality, or incomprehensibly idiosyncratic experimentation)
-- “poetry so highly wrought and so stripped down to essentials that there is nowhere to hide.”
-- sparely beautiful diction: concise phrasing, particular rather than general; word chosen for precision of meaning and its aura of connotation, and its music in relation to the rest of the poem.

Skeetr --

Your poetry crit list looks really good. I think I am going to take a leaf from your book and start trawling through my writing books to put together a similar list for short stories (the only writing I am doing at present). I will incorporate suggestions on an earlier thread as well. Then I will post it here on the forum for anyone who's interested - to dissect said list or otherwise!

Ani

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I think I should have said 'incorporate suggestions from an earlier thread'.

That would be a great list to read, Ani -- thanks in advance for compiling it.

Look forward to it,

Smith

Not quite a list but a book I have found very helpful is 'word painting' by Rebecca McClanahan isbn 1 58297 025 4 does make you think about the words you use when writing
hope this is as useful as your lists

david

I found an article on the internet by Victory Crayne called 'How to Critique Fiction.' [type in victory crayne and you'll find it.] Probably to be taken with a large pinch of salt - I don't think it's good to be prescriptive about these things, but maybe it provides some useful guidelines.

I agree that what one wants is good honest constructive criticism. I can't stand it when I feel someone is just being kind, though obvously genuine praise is very encouraging.

I don't think I'm very good at criting writing at all [I'm quite new to it,] but I find that I learn so much from doing it. I used to paint and teach fine art, and I found that I learnt so much from talking to students because you have to be rigorous in your analysis of their work to do it justice, whereas you can be lazy when it comes to criticism of your own work.

I'm not a poet skeetr, but I shall read yours.

Amnesia

Thanks, Amnesia -- I just searched for that site. It looks very helpful:

http://www.crayne.com/howcrit.html

amnesia

interesting comments about critique always good to get peer assessment as well from the other students.

Sorry olebut, I didn't really understand that.
Amnesia

Amnesia

Thanks for the link to that article. I have pulled it up.

You made me think of some other links!

Here's one link to a short story crit framework put together by John Ravenscroft and some other writers for a crit group.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/getwriting/A2139220

And there's another article by Rebecca Swift about giving and getting feedback here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/getwriting/givingfeedback

Ani

Thanks Ani,

They look very interesting.
Amnesia.

All I can say is -- after only one day of constructive and pointed feedback on WW, I've been able to revise "Wanderers" to what I believe is a better poem.



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Oh, and I changed the title to "Immalee" -- again, helpful comments and dicussion reinforced my own intimation that the original title was inadequate.