You'll make far more money writing chicklit, LolaDane than you will out of lit lit so you can treat yourself to the last laugh. What aboyt writing crimchicklit? You'll clean up! Is this a new genre I've just invented?

Um,.... can we have a YA chick lit group then?

Alexandra

I bet David's wishing he never asked!

I'd be happy to host a Teen Chick Lit group, then, if we're allowed and if anyone else wants this.

Is it going to solve the oversubscription to Chick Lit problem, though? If none of us leave Chick Lit, we're in the same position. Is there a waiting list of people who want to join Chick Lit? Would they prefer a Teen Chick Lit group or a second all-encompassing Chick Lit group?

Luisa


P.S. Jem, your new genre is known as Chick Lit Mystery, I think. It's a growing genre. There are a lot of subgenres out there!

I'm back. Sigh. Just can't keep away.

You see, it's the value judgements I can't take. Of course, anyone's personally entitled not to enjoy a certain genre (perhaps not on the basis of one book, but still).

I've only read one fantasy book and I didn't particularly enjoy it, but I didn't come on here and leave comments in the fantasy group (I don't even know if there's a fantasy group, but for the sake of argument) telling people they seem quite talented and should try writing 'proper' books instead.

(Perhaps someone would like to email Stephen King: "Now you've had your fun with your little horror books, but you do seem to be quite a talented writer so why don't you try and write a proper book now?")

Of course, there's also the age-old argument that not all Literature-with-a-capital-L is good. In fact there is an enormous amount of badly-written non-genre fiction out there. Isn't it lucky Terry enjoyed the first non-genre book he ever read, otherwise he'd never have been able to bring himself to read another book again!

Keris x

P.S. Myrtle: precisely!

Could the two groups be 'linked' in the sense that making work visible to 'group members only' encompasses both groups, but stating a different stance at the head of each page so that people know one group focusses on adult fiction and one on YA? Then nobody really leaves the existing group, and forum discussions are obviously open to all, and people can choose to comment across the two but probably focus on the ones they feel a bit more in tune with.

?

Or is that a bit pants? (to use a word I'm far too old for)

Myrtle

I think what it comes down to is that people are offended for being made feel like they are in the 'wrong class at school'. And that's how value judgements come across to the chick lit writers - as they've heard them all before.

At the end of the day chick lit writers are like any other writer at heart, they feel compelled to write and the genre they pick is the one that comes naturally to them.

As has been said in this thread there's not much 'clear cut' chick lit in the group here, most are pushing out to try and create books that cover wider audiences, I don't think we're built to fit in a box :-)

I think we should go for a Chick lit / Contemporary YA+ and we can welcome non YA writers as well as YA writers -who can't get into the original chick lit group? As it is, I'd like join, and I'm writing sci fi, so we're already escaping our box again....

<Added>

Myrtle - sounds good, like that idea.

I found out the other day that one of my books is technically 'teen science fiction chick lit' - who knew?! Labels - gotta love 'em.

Cool! I have to remember that label for my cover letter :-)

That sounds like a good idea to me, Myrtle.

Is it "doable"?

K x

P.S. Luisa, I meant to say - surely it's YA chick lit paranormal? My Head Over Feet would be too.

Well, I read a site that classified Freaky Friday and Me Vs. Me as 'science fiction'. Maybe it depends who is doing the classification! But I did put LGS into the 'paranormal' part of the Stiletto comp as my second choice, so I agree with you.

I like Myrtle's idea too.

<Added>

I've written to David Bruce about Myrtle's suggestion.

Okay, I said I was leaving the thread but I can see that having stirred up a bit of controversy, it's only right that I put my cards on the table.

First, I apologise to all you chick-litters for advising, rather bluntly, that the Young Adult Group wasn't the right place for what you do. What I should have said was that of course, anyone can join the group. However, chick lit is a genre with a particular kind of approach that involves, for example, a great community spirit amongst its writers. 'Straight' YA is not geared up like that (and I'm painfully aware I'm speaking in generalisms here). It isn't dedicated to any particular genre – and I'm not counting YA itself as one here – so its writers, while being very supportive of each other in terms of critiquing and, in some cases, helping each other a lot behind the scenes, aren't so strongly linked by sharing a common kind of writing. Having said that, anyone really is welcome and, despite what I said, I would critique any new person's work, and would do so impartially.

Second – and I should have kept this separate from the first point – was my comments about chick lit as a genre. I think there are two issues here: 1) genre writing in general, and 2) chick lit specifically. In general, I think most people would agree that most genre books serve a well-defined commercial purpose arising from
a clearly identified reader-need, and no one would claim it's great writing (leaving aside for now what constitutes 'great'. In this respect, most fantasy writing, for example, is formulaic, badly written, predictable, Tolkien-centric, pulp. Ditto crime, romance, science-fiction, etc. There are of course some commercial genre books that are well written, or which have elements of writing that are admirable; but these aren't really required, it's just something the author does.

But looking at genres specifically, I don't think they're all equal. For example, crime fiction has produced some great technical writers – people you could study in creative writing classes. Elmore Leonard springs to mind, and Andrew Vaschss. Leonard writes sparely, cleanly, knows exactly what he's doing. Vaschss is similar – his prose cuts like a knife; nothing wasted. But great technical writers are thinner on the ground in most other genres.

(A slight side-track here. . . . Someone implied that members of the fantasy group wouldn't like it if anyone came in criticising their genre. Well, I can only speak for myself, but I always welcome criticism, and, where fantasy's concerned, would probably agree with most of it. I'd enjoy the chance to argue the pros and cons. And I'd probably agree that there aren't many good technical writers in fantasy. The only way you're going to grow stronger in your writing is by being open to criticism of it, both at the individual and collective (in terms of the genre you write in) levels.)

So, if crime fiction is strong in good technical writing, I'd say science fiction is strong on theme. Not the majority genre-pleasing stuff, but the books that are written because the writer wants to say something different or challenging. I could spend the rest of the day listing sci-fi books that have raised important issues, many of which are still being talked about decades later – the books and the issues. And, yes, I know the argument about there being nothing wrong with escapist fiction. But that's my point: science fiction as a genre has plenty of escapist fiction – all the space opera stuff for a start. Yet it also has truly memorable, inspiring, thoughtful works too.

And I'm well aware of the snobbery that exists against genre fiction. I grew up reading science fiction, but attended a grammar school where such writing was looked as if it carried the plague. This, despite the fact that at the very same time, we were studying Brave New World and 1984 for A-level – science fiction books in all but cover descriptions. We also have people on this site who sneer at science fiction while at the same time directing writers to such useful websites as Preditors and Editors, and the Turkey City Lexicon – organised and compiled by the science fiction community – without a trace of irony.

However, I don't believe that the romance genre, for example, is as versatile as science fiction. And I'd say the same for chick lit. I've looked at plenty of chick lit books (by which I mean reading the first 10 pages or so – from which you really can tell a lot, before anyone shouts that I should have read the whole thing), and read those recommended to me by people who write it. But I don't see either great technical writing or much content that extends beyond a basic reflection of everyday life as it is. Again, there's nothing wrong with that as escapist fiction. But my feeling about chick lit is that it doesn't really have the good stuff too.

It goes without saying that these are just my views. However, if someone challenged the genre I write in, I'd consider their points at least. If I thought they were talking out of their top hats, then I'd just ignore them. But sometimes within the criticism is a fundamental question we just might be ignoring, which is: why do I write and what am I trying to achieve with my stories? I'm facing this question myself, having just switched from children's writing to science-fiction/fantasy.

Best wishes to you all, and I do envy the close-knit nature of the chick lit community. It's a bit like being a member of a football supporters club, without the fighting, swearing and throwing up (unless there's something you aren't telling us!).

Terry

Just wanted to say that I think Myrtle's idea is great.
I'd like a YA Chick Lit group and if it goes ahead, I'll move to that from chick-lit because I feel I'm taking up space in the Chick Lit group with my YA stuff, but I do love the chick-litters!

*groan* I'm not adding anything new to this discussion am I?

Zoe
x

Thank you for coming back, Terry - no-one can say you're not brave!

Of course we all know we're going to have to agree to disagree, but can I just mention a couple (or three) things first?

Someone implied that members of the fantasy group wouldn't like it if anyone came in criticising their genre. Well, I can only speak for myself, but I always welcome criticism

That was me and that's not what I said - I said I'm sure they wouldn't take kindly to being told to stop writing fantasy and try writing 'proper' books. Of course we chick litters welcome criticism - that's why we're here after all - but we don't get any from site experts (to my knowledge there has never been a comment by a site expert on a work uploaded to the chick lit group - no offense, Terry, but please don't take that as an invitation ). Being told that chick lit isn't 'worthy' of a writer isn't what I call constructive criticism, rather uninformed prejudice. Which brings me to ...

But my feeling about chick lit is that it doesn't really have the good stuff too.

You're welcome to your feelings, but they're wrong. Why else would chick lit be so popular? (As the great Robbie Williams sings, 'You can't argue with popularity. Well, you could, but you'd be wrong") Or is it because us little ladies are too stupid to understand we should be reading (and writing) the "good stuff"? I read plenty of "good stuff" during my English Literature degree and yet here I am.

fighting, swearing and throwing up (unless there's something you aren't telling us!)

There's plenty of that! That's why we started the Chick Tale Lounge!

Keris x

As you know, I also agree to disagree. You raise some interesting points, though.

All I can add to Keris's comments is this.

But I don't see either great technical writing or much content that extends beyond a basic reflection of everyday life as it is.

You must have missed it.

I don't understand this 'holding a mirror up to life' criticism that often gets levelled at Chick Lit. For a start, writing that can truly hold a mirror up to life is surely what we're all striving for. All fiction constructs fictional worlds, and whether you set your book on Pluto and populate it with Xargloids or set it in Kensington and populate it with 25-year-old magazine editors, you can still write about the human condition and challenge commonly held beliefs, or explore any number of issues.

As for 'great technical writing' - isn't that subjective? (I know you're going to say it isn't!) There is a technique to chatty, humorous writing.

Thanks for coming back and discussing this with us!

<Added>

Sorry, that comment was aimed at Terry. I didn't see your post before, Bege.

About the groups (which was the original reason for this thread, of course!) I don't know - is there a demand for another Chick Lit group? Or is the demand for OUR Chick Lit group, if you see what I mean?!

Does anyone know who these mythical people on the waiting list are and what they write?!

I think two linked groups could work, with no pressure to comment.

I don't think there would necessarily be extra pressure - they'd be two separate groups but members would have the opportunity to critique in both, rather than feeling compelled. But the point was that if Luisa and Alexandra, for example, ONLY write YA chick lit, how would it work to be members of both groups at once...unless they were working on one YA and one adult Chick Lit...? Or perhaps I'm confusing things.