I think John is right. I'm very aware that most feedback I've given is along the lines of "I really liked this" and "That line was great". Although it's probably nice to read, I doubt that it is very helpful.

I've done a few courses at work on how to give effective feedback, and one of the most important things to come out is detail - it's no good saying something is rubbish, if you can't say what is rubbish about it. Unfortunately, in writing that is one of the hardest things to pick out. Why does a character feel wooden? Why does the setting feel false? If I knew that, I would be a better writer myself.

Don't have any answers here, unfortunately, just rambling really. But maybe trying to work out what needs improvement in other people's work will help us all make our own work better.

Sam

Just on a personal note I tend to swing between a-critic-is-a-legless-person-who-teaches-others-how-to-run and omigod-wot-a-wunnerful-person-cheque's-in-the-post-if-you'll-give-me-your-address attitudes depending on the feedback given. Well. That's the first reaction. The next is always more considered, so at least the chequebook stays closed. My experience of WriteWords (admittedly, not long) has been that every criticism (bar one from a raving loonie who set up two identities so he could post comments on his own work: creative or wot?) has been constructive and that members have taken a lot of time and a lot of trouble to lend support. When time permits (which currently it unfortunately doesn't) I try to do the same but am often left in the position of oldfriend where I can't really add anything to that which has alrady been said -- so making a comment mandatory, as it were, isn't going to work. Where it's a case of one-liners though, please: don't minimise their worth; writing is to me at any rate a weird process where the creative current fluctuates all the time, and a supportive one-liner really does deliver a jolt to the system and, er, increase the voltage. So no. I think IB raised a very good point but can't see how the present system can or should be changed. As to a star system, what's the rating for 'very fragile: please whisper'????
Richard

Are we being a bit hard on ourselves here?

Yes, criticism of any sort is probably what most of us are looking for. It's sooo easy to get rejected by and agent/publisher. What a lot of people want to know is how to get their work up to the point where it won't be sent back with a rude slip of paper... Not easy.
At the same time, though, has anyone noticed how you can say ten positive, absolutely honest things about a piece of work, but it's the bits you didn't like/ think could use a little change, that the writer will pick up on. Good practice - but are we doing the empty glass clingfilm trick and not letting the positive sink in as well?
I'm with Richard on this one - the one liners aren't normally there becuase someone's out to get extra points or feels obliged to comment. Sometimes I read a piece of work and I'm so awed by it I'm scared to comment because I think I don't even fall into the calliber of being able to appreciate it properly. But then again - wouldn't it be better just to say "nice one" than to let it sink into a void? Especially if we're not letting the positive bits sink in fully. The more people who give it big ticks, the more confidence that writer should be feeling.

I do think honesty is incredibly important, though. Saying something you don't mean about a piece of work can actually be more damaging than a good thrashing sometimes. A star rating would be a great way of knowing how much to say/withold, but I don't think it should ever be a level of how truthful you can be...

Good debate this. Nice one IB.

Lots of interesting points being raised here. I have to agree with keeping the one liners - as a reader sometimes we read to be entertained and if the piece did that, it's good to tell the author (and to hear it as the author). Often people state what they want the readers to pick up on.

Also, I have found myself quite high up on the most popular list sometimes ( even at the top once!) and yet the number of comments made haven't been enormous. I suspect this is people clicking when a site expert has commented and then possibly not even bothering to read!!(Which is OK, I'm not critisizing!) Also, I suppose people who are not members are reading and so upping the popularity (?)

On the bbc website they give guidelines on how to give positive feedback - maybe we could think about doing a special page?

I like the idea of colour coding the type of work but I don't want to give ratings for work.

That's all for now
Elspeth

I've come into this thread feeling like I do when I've just read an uploaded piece of work. I would've formed a personal opinion in my head of how I feel towards the piece and then I'll find that everything I wanted to say has already been said (that's unless I've got in there first). So what do you do? Do you not comment at all even if it's to say 'I really liked this. Look forward to reading more of your work.'? Isn't that in itself constructive criticism. Isn't silence more destructive?

On a personal level, I would like to know how many members actually read the piece of uploaded work, so perhaps an indication of the number of hits. This way, I can compare the number of hits with the number of comments. This together with the 'comment rating scale' would be useful to ascertain the readability or likeability of the piece. It would be up to the author him/herself to decide. I know there's a 'most popular' list in the Archive...but this would be slightly different and more informative.

In all honesty, if you tick the 'be gentle with me' box on the commenting scale - all you will get is 'I liked it' and if they didn't like it people won't comment at all and those who like it but feel that it needs work and want to give constructive criticism will be walking on eggshells not to write something too upsetting. That's not really very helpful to anyone and will eventually put people off.

Perhaps it does depend on the reasons why a writer uploads their work. If you're serious about getting published then I would think you would want hardcore criticism to really get the writing into shape. If you're writing for pleasure and not wishing to make a career out of it and not bothered about being published then I assume that you'd be happy with moderate criticism to improve your technique or maybe you don't really care because it's just for fun. I don't say this in a patronising manner at all - after all we enjoy writing.

Without causing too much of a furor when I say this - I think there are levels of writers. This doesn't mean that one is beneath or above the other.

As an example: I write poetry and fictional novels. I would want hardcore criticism on my fiction writing because I want to make a career and living out of it (i.e. I want to be published). For my poetry, I would want moderate criticism because I'm not considering having them published but I feel there's room for personal improvement. Both these 'levels' of writing would still welcome the mere 'I really liked this. Thanks' with no further comment because that's a real booster!

I know I've gone on and on...but my suggestion would be:

1. An indication (a clicked box or something) of how soft or hard you want the comments to be.

2. An indication of hits on the uploaded piece of work.

3. Encouragement of simple comments of, say, 'I like it.' so that members don't feel as if they have to be writing experts to comment. We're all learning together.

Many thanks for your attention!

Nahed

"I've come into this thread feeling like I do when I've just read an uploaded piece of work. I would've formed a personal opinion in my head of how I feel towards the piece and then I'll find that everything I wanted to say has already been said (that's unless I've got in there first). So what do you do? Do you not comment at all even if it's to say 'I really liked this. Look forward to reading more of your work.'? Isn't that in itself constructive criticism. Isn't silence more destructive?"

In reply to this, Ithink it would be handy to say 'I agree with soandso, the character is well rounded, but the dialogue is a little flat..."

If you have three people making the same comment, then you can be pretty sure that it's something you need to work on. If, however, only one person finds a part of your story to be stretching believability too far, perhaps you'd keep it as it was if no other readers had said anything similar?

As for levels of comments that we want, I think that's a great idea. Whilst I'm not particularly thick skinned, I understand that it can help no end if you're willing to take it. I have to confess to not always reacting well to criticism at first, initially dismissing it with a 'what do they know anyway' to myself, but when I let it sink in, I can see that people are only trying to help!

And IB, I thought that a feedback cap was going to be some kind of item of clothing that you would put on in order to give feedback. In fact, I think you should now start every piece of feedback with...

"Hmmm, I've just put on my feedback cap and..."

Better still would be a "force-feedback" cap, an extension to any good mobile phone, that vibrates violently on your head whenever you get a text message...

Up until recently (last week) I thought only group members commented on uploaded work by other group members. Isn’t that the point of being in a group?

Maybe it needs to be made more clear or am I just a little on the slow side? (don’t answer that).

Dawn,

You can upload work and select it to only be available to other group members only, if, perhaps, you're not ready to show it to a wider audience.

I tend to put short stories into my short story group, but also make then available to other WW members to see.

Really good discussion with lots of pertinent points made, so many in fact that I have little to add. People often do ask very specific things of those who are criting, and that does help, - it gives you something to work with, and lets you crit freely. This has already been said, (and I agree), that all comments, compliments as well as harder crits, are good to receive. When someone writes something really funny and really well, all you want to do is make as warm a comment as the way they made you feel.
Becca.

I think all sides of the debate have been well aired..I don't want to repeat what's gone before..
I do try and coment if I read something all the way through. I've never left a very negative comment..if I seriously don't like a piece I'll stop reading and say nothing. And if I auggest things, I always try to be as sensitive as I can about it...and I find other's do too, at least in my experience.
Levels of feedback required are a great idea and I'm certainly in favour of a 'hit rate' counter. As already been mentioned, I'm sometimes of the Most Popular list but the piece will only have 3 or 4 comments, which is irritating.

I think in the end, all we can try and do is be honest and respectful of each other. If you give a comment, make sure it's one that you wouldn't be upset to receive...after that it's just good ole common sense, I think.

x
tc


<Added>

But what I really, really want is Owner Edit to let me edit the bloomin' thing!
Sorry for the typos, folks.

other thoughts that occur to me are

that all full members work just goes into their groups and that the board on the archive page is for temporary members work.But unless you check the group members only box everybody can read and comment. This would have the benefit of sorting the work more readily. It owuld also have the disadvantage that say a member of thepoetry group would haveto join the fiction group to post a short story.

david

Sorry, I'm a bit late coming to this one, but I thought I'd add that it can be the same problem with written submissions as well as reading work on-line. I'm always fretting about how honest I can be when I respond to people's work. Usually I just try to be completely honest since most writers who want to be published seem to want that sort of feedback. But I always qualify it with the fact that it's only one person's opinion. A small point but a hugely important one.

When people specifically ask me to read their work, whether through the site or the office, I do tend to be quite tough (although I tyr to balance any negative comments with something positive). If I'm just browsing through the archive then I won't go into as much detail and tend to go with more of the one-liner approach as I don't know that they want it to be dissected in that way.

But as I said, I find it very difficult to judge sometimes. Another point is that detailed criticism takes time. I spend ages writing letters to people, trying to word it all just so. Which is why I'm afraid I can't always give detailed feedback on every submission, or every synopsis. But hey, we're all trying to help each other out, aren't we? And that's the main thing.

Katie

Reading Katie's response made me think of another, though related, point: have you ever asked an individual to review you work?

Is that an acceptable practice?

There are people on here that have had success, and not just the experts (am thinking of four people specifically, though there are probably others that I have yet to come across), and, without mentioning (user)names, do people think it is okay to ask individuals to comment, or is it a tad rude (I think the latter by the way)?

Interested in people's thoughts on this

I've been asked to comment by a couple of members, and I don't mind (although I don't have the time to do it too often). As I said, I feel that if I'm asked then a more honest and a more detailed approach is required, so I hope the person in question didn't mind my comments. I suppose it depends on who you're asking and why.