But it's the individual's work. If I wasn't able to have full control of my work then I'm damn sure I wouldn't post anything again.

I think, as has been said before, that it's a courtesy thing. I personally leave most of my stuff on until I've come up with an improved version, and I also try to comment on a) everybody's work in my groups, and b) on everyone's work who has commented on mine.

Nik.

I agree with Nik. If I didn't have full control over my work I wouldn't post either.

This is not an easy question to answer. There is the basic question of how long a piece of work should remain accessible, with or without comments.

Some of the opinions here suggest that the visual life of an offering should be affected by the comments it received and, where these comments have been made by a Site Expert, the exposure time should be lengthened accordingly. No 'times' can be sensible given so the yardstick of 'courtesy' is introduced.

There have been some Members who one recognises do not take kindly to any comments that are in any way 'critical' however helpful the Critic has tried to be, each point being 'argued' at length. There again there are those 'Critics' who seek to demonstrate their own prowess with the written word under the banner of 'analysis'.

So there is no generally acceptable answer that will suit all Members. There is the facility on WW to remove a piece of one's work, only to download again with criticisms removed. Any person or even Site Expert who feels that this was a deliberate ploy to remove the criticism can simply (1) never again criticise that person's work.
(2) make this fact known to others who generally are very active on offering criticms, and

(3) inform David who may decide to contact that person on this point.

Len

Good common sense from Len, as usual. You're right, there is no easy answer. Which is why a debate like this is useful, in that we get a chance to see where different people stand.

I'm not sure I agree with the view that the writer has full control over his work. The only place that's possible is in personal journals. If you wish to be published in the public domain, you will have to give up the idea of full control. Your agent will want you to make changes, for a start, and your editor will too. Once the book is published, it's very much open for anyone to express their views on it. And if the Sunday Times gives it a bad review, you can hardly withdraw it from the shelves because you want to keep control.

I do feel this is a fundamental issue: that if you are posting work on a public site because you want feed-back, then part of the price you pay for that is to accept that your work is no longer private.

Terry


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Besides, how are you giving up control? It's still your piece, to do with as you see fit. No one is taking it over, stealing the ideas or even changing the text.

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Ah ... I think I see: you mean full control as to whether or not to withdraw a piece. Well, again, I think you give up a degree of that control by placing it in the public domain and asking - don't forget that part: you're asking - for help. To go back to the courtesy point - if you really do want full control in this respect, it's only fair to everyone to state it up-front, e.g. "Here's my latest piece; I'd like feed-back on it but not too much since I reserve the right, for whatever reason, to remove this piece whenever it suits me. I am the author and I have full control."

On the other hand, if a member, having posted up a piece of work, suddenly realises with hindsight that it's a total embarrassment, who's to say that he or she should not be able to withdraw it immediately?

What's 'a total embarrassment'? If someone's work gets a lot of feedback that says it needs improvement, that shouldn't be an embarrassment, it should be a learning experience! And hopefully for more people than just the author!

So what if your rough drafts or weaker writing and comments upon them are on display? It shows writing in development and therefore can teach people. It should help build a writer's confidence about showing new work and receiving crits (as many of us have pointed out on this site, knowing how to take criticism is a really important part of being a writer).

Another point I'd like to add is that I always print work off to crit (can't read lots of text on screen) and if it takes me a few days to read it and type up my critiques, I've found several times I've returned to the site to find the work gone, which can be a bit frustrating sometimes.

David isn't saying everyone should leave all work up on the site forever, just to consider before you remove work. I think that's fair enough.

Cath

Firstly I would ask the obvious question: why isn't it possible to leave comments visible when the piece itself has been removed? Instead of it vanishing without a trace, it could be replaced by a standard "the author has chosen to remove this piece" announcement. Admittedly many of the comments wouldn't make sense taken out of context like that, but at least this would do their contributors the courtesy of showing that they had bothered. (In fact, why not get people to supply a "reason for withdrawal" when they delete an item? The announcement could then say "removed for rework in the light of comments received", or suchlike.)

Secondly, there have been occasions in the past when, in response to comments on my work, I have offered explanations of the reasoning behind the way I have structured a story, only to have the commenter react with something of a huff at having their comments answered. This has made me wary about answering comments in anything but the blandest way, even when I feel that criticism is well-founded and would like to discuss it so as to understand better how to address it. I would suggest, therefore, that the kind of courtesy we are discussing here is two way. Those posting work should be prepared for comments, but equally, those making comments should be prepared for a two-way discussion on the merits of both the work and the comments. If such discussion isn't allowed, then much of the opportunity for learning is lost.


Alex

Secondly, there have been occasions in the past when, in response to comments on my work, I have offered explanations of the reasoning behind the way I have structured a story, only to have the commenter react with something of a huff at having their comments answered.

Alex, I've commented on your work in the past and have received a reply from you re. my comments. Without wishing to be rude, a writer's "explanations of the reasoning behind the way I have structured a story" can come across to the commentator as a dismissive, defensive, "not really listening" response to feedback.

Frances

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Also -

those making comments should be prepared for a two-way discussion on the merits of both the work and the comments

I disagree. The commentator has already given the writer plenty of time and attention, and may well not want to enter a lengthy "two-way discussion" - in which case, they shouldn't be expected to do so.

Frances,

a writer's "explanations of the reasoning behind the way I have structured a story" can come across to the commentator as a dismissive, defensive, "not really listening" response to feedback

If that's true then that's the commentator's problem. Surely you're not suggesting that a writer has no right to reply? I thought the point of comments was to enter into a dialogue about a piece. It's a sad day for this site if discussion is curtailed because the commentator can't cope with being critiqued.

Gulliver, thank you for that supporting voice.

Frances, part of the reason for eliciting comments (for me, at least) is to understand both what I am doing right and what I am doing wrong (and there are lots of examples of the latter in my writing). If I feel that I had a good reason for the way I have structured a piece, then of course I want to discuss the point with a commenter. I need to know (a) whether the reason I felt I had was flawed, and (b) whether the commenter has more complex reasons than first indicated for offering the comment made. Arguing a point like this does not constitute dismissal of a comment. It means I'm thinking about what has been said and trying to fit it into my writing style.

In any case, what is wrong with testing the strength of a critique? If it is valid, it will stand up to such a test. If not, then the writer of the piece will be justified in choosing not to take account of it. And in either case, both writer and commenter will have learned something from the exchange. Which is the whole point, isn't it? Or am I missing something?


Alex

Frances,

I've looked back over the work of mine on which you were kind enough to comment (originally called "Co-workers"), and I can't see anything that could justifiably be claimed to come across as dismissive. As a matter of fact, I did rework the piece in the light of your comments, and even posted a reply there to this effect (out of courtesy, by way of thanking you for your input and to ensure any other commenters were aware that part of the credit for any improvement went to you).

I am genuinely perplexed, and I would welcome the opinions of others on my responses to comments that have been posted regarding my pieces. If I am breaking any site etiquette that I hadn't been aware of, will someone please tell me? (I'm not attempting to solicit extra comments on my work, I just want to know if anyone else thinks I'm being discourteous. Please.)

Incidentally, until I read this thread, I was not aware that deleting a piece would remove the comments associated with it. I have not had cause to want to delete anything yet (as far as I can remember), so I don't know what happens when you do it. Does the system warn that deleting the piece will remove all comments? If not, then maybe some people delete work without realising this will happen.


Alex

Sorry, but I still don't think "the point of comments is to enter into dialogue about a piece". The person giving comments may of course be happy to do this, but they may also have a busy life and writing of their own to attend to.

Alex, I've looked back at the dialogue we had - yes, I see we were both courteous, open and friendly. You were not dismissive - I apologise for having said so. But can you understand how I might have felt a little pressurised by your expectation that I would comment on your revised piece?

Frances

Alex,

With regard to responding to comments, (not to your specific responses but writers' in general) I think that the commentator is placing himself in the role of a reader and giving his or her reactions to the piece. In the case of a published work it's not possible for the writer to respond saying 'Yes, but he does that because...'. The work has to stand alone and if the reader has taken a meaning that the writer didn't intend then the writer has to look seriously at that and decide whether the meaning is as clear as it could be or if this is an 'unreliable reader'. Either could be the case. But if the commentator gets a list of defensive reasons justifying the writer's position it gives the impression that the commentator is being considered 'unreliable' (not saying that you do or did this but it does happen) and that doesn't encourage someone to continue commenting.

That said, there is a distinction between jusifying why things have been done in a certain way and asking for more explanation. For example, if someone says "I didn't like the way X reacted in this scene", then you could ask for clarification as to what exactly was the impression X gave. The difference is between trying to better understand the reader's reaction and trying to convince the reader that he/she has misunderstood.

And on the more general point of erasing comments, it is possible to edit an uploaded piece without removing the comments. Although this can be a little confusing for someone reading after as the comments may refer to a point that no longer exists, I think it is very useful to keep the comments so that the writer can start to get a consensus about what people think. In one piece I uploaded there has been significant disagreement between commentators about how I should open it and the fact of there being so much disagreement makes me think that it is a personal preference thing and so I feel better about going with my own gut feeling. If most others felt differently to me I would have to seriously question my own view.

Sorry to have rambled on so long.

Ashlinn

This isn't my area of experience, but two quick thoughts:

If the writer does decide to take the work down, perhaps they could post their intention in the 'Introduce your work' forum (or the group forum if it is one). A 'last orders, please, ladies and gentlemen' would do, and might even prompt one or two more. Or 'I realise it needs a complete re-think, so I've taken it down, thank you for all your comments' would be better than nothing.

If you revise it and leave it there, you could post that in the thread of comments, and anyone coming late to the party would know at what point it changed. Indeed, it would be interesting to see a comment that prompted a revision, and then the revised version, because I find that I often agree with a comment on my work, but find that my solution isn't at all what was suggested.

Emma

But can you understand how I might have felt a little pressurised by your expectation that I would comment on your revised piece?

No, I can't. My reply simply said "have a look and see what you think". It didn't beg for further comments, and I didn't attempt to follow it up with any further WWMails. I posted a follow-up comment regarding a related upload, of course, but this was for the information of anyone else who read the work and wanted to know "what happened next".

If a commenter does not have time for follow-up analysis or comments, what is wrong with simply posting a comment to that effect? That seems to me to be a perfectly acceptable and courteous way of letting each other know we are under time pressure.

And to forestall possible criticism for carrying out what appears to be a private conversation in a forum, I feel this point is important enough, and sufficiently closely related to the theme of this thread, that it deserves to be aired in public. For a few weeks during the summer, I had two reasons why I wasn't very active on this site. One was that I had work in the real world to do. The other was that, having had my wrists slapped over exactly this issue, I felt disinclined to stick my head over the parapet until I had spent more time reading the site. I'm still not entirely sure what the point of asking for comments on work is, if one isn't allowed to discuss the merits of both the work and the comments.

So what other options do I have for improving my writing by getting feedback on it? Editors won't give comments because they're too busy and they aren't writing tutors (and I fully understand both of those reasons). I can't join a writing group or class because (a) I can't handle more than about 5 people at once and (b) being around others who are very single-minded and driven intimidates me to the point where I lose my self-belief. Paid editorial feedback is as expensive as self-publication, and is still only the opinion of 1 person (I've tried this approach). Self-publication may or may not produce feedback, depending on whether I can market my book well enough, and whether any readers feel moved to contact me (I'm currently trying this approach). And, apparently, posting work on here means you can only take what you're given and aren't allowed to question it. (Sorry, Ashlinn, but the analogy with a book in print does not work. I'm posting work here because I want feedback and discussion, and the reason for using an on-line forum rather than print is precisely because of the 2-way, immediate nature of the exchange.)

All of which leaves me where? I don't know.

Emma, have a look at the comments that followed my piece "Greater Love Than This, chapter 1" (formerly called "Co-workers"). Frances posted some comments, we discussed them a little, and then I posted a revised version which took as full an account of Frances' comments as I felt it could. I then posted a comment to say that this was what I had done. As far as I was concerned, I was treating the comments with 100% of the respect they deserved, and the discussion was part of showing that respect (because I was brought up not to ignore people who speak to me).


Alex

Alex, all I can say is that I haven't felt this kind of 'pressure of expectation' from any other WriteWords member.

Frances

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Ashlinn, you haven't 'rambled on' at all. What you say is very much to the point and very helpful.

Frances

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Actually, just realised that I've been severely premenstrual for the past couple of days, so please disregard everything I said above.

Alex, I apologise.

Frances