From time to time a member of the site draws attention to the fact that they've just spent a long time commenting on a work, only to have the author remove the work - and the attached comment - shortly afterwards.

Whilst authors must of course retain the right to remove their work whenever they want to, it is worth taking into consideration the fact that other members may benefit from comments on your work, and that in many cases it would therefore be courteous to the person who took the time to comment, to leave work visible on the site for a little longer - particularly where the comment is by an expert and/or there has evidently been a lot of time and thought put into the comment.

Thanks to everyone for your consideration in this matter.

Without wanting to tread on any toes, I have to disagree with you, Dave, regarding the idea that we are obliged, in whatever way, to keep work on the site simpy because someone (and not just a site expert) has made extensive comments on it. Comments are invited but not solicited. If anyone takes a considerable amount of time to analyse a piece in detail, then that is their choice. In such cases, perhaps it would be better if the author is contacted first to ensure that such a critique is wanted and that the author intends to leave the piece posted. If not, then site experts and non-experts take the same risk.

I think we're just drawing it to people's attention. Of course you're not obliged to keep the piece on site, but where possible, allowing other members to view the work after such comments is helpful to other members, and should, where possible be taken into consideration, that's all we're really saying.

A few months ago, I decided to concentrate my time on commenting on people's work, rather than make postings on the forum. This has allowed me to do more detailed critiques. But I want to post on this subject because I believe David has a valid point here.

There have been times recently when someone's posted work under the banner of 'Go on - I can take it!', received serious and interesting comments and then promptly removed the piece. In one case, the writer wrote me an email thanking me for the comments and to inform me that he was removing the piece to rework it. Which is sort of fair enough. In another case, the writer was defensive and sarcastic (to two of the people who'd reviewed his piece), removed the piece in an obvious huff then re-posted it soon after, i.e. with everyone's comments now removed. Clearly, this is someone who doesn't think they need to improve their writing (well, he actually said this at one point) and is posting more as a display than a call for help. And it's dishonest because others will now comment, not realising that he's already received plenty of feed-back, and also not realising that they're going to be similarly chopped if he doesn't like theirs either.

The point is, writers have responsibilities beyond their personal feelings when they place work on the forum. If a writer asks for honest feed-back and receives it, then in my view he has a duty to let others benefit from it, for at least a while. If he doesn't then it's quite possible that those of us who tend to give detailed critiques will lose the inclination to do so. Most people on WW do in fact leave their work on site for a decent period. So I guess this is a request that if anyone doesn't intend to do this, if they don't receive only positive comments, to say so up-front.

Terry

Surely a piece is posted, comments received and the author then decides that the piece requires modification, so deltes it and modifies it, in line with some if not all of the advice given.

Then either reposts it or moves on, isn't that how the site should work rather than become a library for poetry, prose and plaudits.

David,

Yes, of course the author is entitled to do whatever he likes with his piece. However, if he was to, say, ask a friend to read some work and comment on it, there is almost certainly going to be give and take involved. He will read and comment on the friend's work, or buy him a drink, or even pay him if he does it for a living.

WriteWords does not involve payment for critiques, obviously. But I would like to feel that there is a strong element of good will here. So, if you post your work and someone spends maybe an hour or more critiquing it, and especially if that critique includes views and information that could be beneficial to other writers on the site, I believe it's good manners for you to leave the comments in the public domain, at least for a while. To me, this is reasonable give and take.

Or to put it another way, if a writer wants serious feed-back (which 'Go on – I can take it!' indicates) but also wants to retain the right to obliterate all comments if it suits him, i.e. to make no return for what he receives, then he should state this intent up-front. If he does that, of course, I suspect he won't receive quite as much feed-back as he might like.

No one has to behave in any particular way at all on this site. However, my own standards are such that if someone takes the trouble to comment in detail on my work, I give them a full response, and express my thanks, whether I agree with the comments or not. And I don't destroy the comments immediately: serious comments are creative work too.

So, to summarise: I believe it's common courtesy to make payment for receiving serious critiques, which is in the form of acknowledging them by replying to the author and by leaving them in the public domain for a time. Or, if that is not the author's intention, then it's common courtesy for them to state exactly what they're looking for and what return, if any, they intend to make, so the rest of us can decide how we wish to respond in the first place.

Terry

Although only a few of us have commented on this thread so far, I think we can begin to see the problem. People have different expectations of this site. For me, it's an enjoyable diversion after a hard day in the classroom. I can't spend hours on the site and I can't spend hours analysing other member's work. That's why I joined the Flash Fiction Group where the work and the comments tend to be short and sweet. If members want to devote more of their time to this site, then good for them. But we have to accept a diversity of expectation and practice. People are free to do what they want with our comments. That's what makes this site so enjoyable.

<Added>

Further to the idea that if we spend a considerable time reviewing a piece then the writer should appreciate the time we take...

As a secondary teacher, I spend hours planning lessons. I can't expect my students to value my lessons just because of the hours I've put in. Teaching is a job which demands that you put in a great deal of effort for often very little reward. Of course there are exceptions. But the nature of my job is to give without expecting anything back. Helping others, without wishing to over-romanticise, usually involves an element of self-sacrifice.

If we try to help others on this site with our comments, we must do so with as much expectation of being ignored as welcomed.

One thing I would say is that I myself get a lot out of writing a review. To look at someone else's work and think about it consciously, and then formulate my thoughts, is a very valuable exercise in itself for me. Obviously it's great if the writer whose work I'm commenting gets something, even just one thing, out of what I have to say. But if not, or if they remove it without a word of thanks - well, yes, I'd be disappointed but it's not the end of the world and I will still feel that I have got something out of writing the review. Then again, I'm not a site expert. I can understand that it's slightly different if you are.

Having said that, all the reviews I've managed to write here have been acknowledged with thanks by the writer concerned.

Roger.

Gulliver, I agree. I guess what I'm saying is that it would be helpful sometimes if people, when posting work, were more specific about what they want, especially if it's just 'short and sweet' comments. It's great to have a diversity of expectation, as long as we know what it is.

Terry

I tend to agree with David Bruce. It's not just that immediately zappping somebody's comment in which they have invested time and effort is discourteous. It's also because the commenting should be in the nature of a discussion rather than a free critique service. David mentioned that other members can also benefit from the comments and to this I would add that I have often had occasion to disagree with a negative comment on somebody else's work made by another reader and have then been able to make a counter-balancing positive remark in defence of the author.

On the other hand, if a member, having posted up a piece of work, suddenly realises with hindsight that it's a total embarrassment, who's to say that he or she should not be able to withdraw it immediately?

When all's said and done, you can't (and shouldn't) have rules about this sort of thing, just guidelines and suggestions. In any case, regular contributors to a group soon get to know who are the takers rather than the givers and can act accordingly thereafter. It seems to me that almost all members do in practice behave courteously so we should beware of attaching too much importance to the problem.

Chris

Sorry, Gulliver, I can't see a similarity between being a teacher and commenting on WW writers' work. First, you're paid to be a school teacher; second, your kids don't have any option about giving you the work. I take your point about expectation but, again, one wouldn't expect much from kids who don't have a choice about going to school in the first place. But for someone who's joined this site through their own free choice because they are doing something they want help with, I think it's different. And to reiterate: no one is saying that there are any rules here about what anyone should do. All I'm saying is that it if a writer posts work on a critique site, there will be an assumption that he wants feed-back on it. If he doesn't want someone to spend a lot of time doing that, then it's good manners for him to say so.

Terry

all the reviews I've managed to write here have been acknowledged with thanks by the writer concerned

It seems that I've been luckier than some, including some who have been kind enough to comment on my own stories. Looking back through some of my uploaded work I find that I have on a number of occasions failed to thank people for their comments. I apologise to all concerned and will try to do better in future. I think there have been mitigating circumstances, but overall there isn't any excuse. Shinykate - sorry especially to you. (I was going to send you a ww-mail, but it doesn't seem possible.) And thanks to everyone who has commented, I really do appreciate it.

Roger.

I, for one really appreciate getting comments on my work & do try & reciprocate. It is a learning thing and requires a degree of confidence to critique a piece. When I have had an incredibly, thourgh feedback on one of my stories - yes rogernmorris you are guilty of that - it more than pays for the membership fee.
And because of this amazing generousity of time they have willing given, it has enabled me to read with a keener eye &, I hope, write with a sharper pen.
Many thanks

Thanks for the kind words Caroline!

Simple solution would be to have to request to have work removed, rather than the power to do so given to the individual.