Shika,

As a member of your group, I just wanted to say that, for me, you are a tactful and thoughtful contributor and your involvement is very much valued. My fear would be more that I am not returning the favour but I understand very well that in the writing process there are times when we want feedback and there are times when we are not ready yet. I respect your decision not to upload your work but when and if you ever decide to do so I would be delighted to read and comment.

It appears we are arriving at a consensus here. The concern is with those few who take, but don't give.

As I think I suggested before, it should be possible for the group to regulate such activity without the need for any formal rules or regulations.

As to non-contributors do we give them a reminder or just drop them when they haven't been active for the approprate period. I have resigned from groups where I didn't feel I should be taking up space and I feel people should be encouraged to be responsible about this issue and 'off' themselves rather than expect someone to do it for them.

One other point. Is there a waiting list for people wanting to join a group? If there is, that would allow the group host to invite whoever is at the top of the list to join when a place becomes vacant. This would avoid the rather fatuous situation we had in Flash of having two places available for over a week and nobody who apparently wanted them.

Cheers

John

It occurs to me that the assumption is that you have time to comment on a regular basis, I think it is the quality of the comment or work that is important, not the frequency with which you do it.

By limiting the membership of groups to those who comment frequnetly rather plays intot he hands of those who perhaps just say 'realy nice' etc etc.

I thought the idea was for the comments to be constructive and relevent.

As for posting new work, production lines aint my thing, and I try only to post work I feel I either need help with or that I want to share for other reaosns.

No ... and yes.

I don't think there is - ever has been - a presumption that anyone should have to comment on a regular basis.

I, for one, accept that not everyone has the time to do that. I don't know about other people but I find it a very time consuming thing to do properly, but still sometimes feel I don't do enough of it.

But I also agree entirely that it is the quality of the comment or work that is important, not the frequency with which you do it.

However, I don't think that this is what this thread has been about. I may be wrong - I might be wrong - but I thought it was about those instances where (a very few) people post their work and ask for feedback and criticism, but seem not to be prepared to recipricate: that is they never take the time to read and comment on other people's work.

Or did I miss something along the way?

That is exactly what I felt we were talking about.

OK I'm getting tired of agreeing with Jumbo.

Brian.

If it is that business of people expecting comments from other people but not reciprocating, there always has been people on WW who have been like that, but not that many actually.
Brian is right that individuals in the different groups get to 'know each other' and take a particular interest in each other's work and trust is built up, that can only be good.
Wasn't David talking, though, about inactive members who neither upload or comment, and therefore take up a space that someone else could do with? WW is so big now, it's all got really tricksy, I guess. There's also the fact that someone alluded to that our real lives are still going on, and people sometimes have tough things to deal with, that they don't tell anyone about, but which keep them off WW for a time. But you sometimes get messages which say things like 'sorry I haven't been around for a while...but.. etc', or 'I don't feel I've contributed here for a long time and have decided to give up the space', and that's people being aware.

I don't know if it's possible anymore on WW, but I like the idea of it being without too much pressure, - but an atmosphere like that could be increasingly difficult to maintain as it expands.
We've gone through all kinds of evolutions and revolutions over time, but the nub of it that is the good bit remains still, - and it's the business of writers trusting other writers to crit well for them. I think we can afford the odd situation which isn't how we want it to be, we have before loads of times, - I don't see why we can't be generous about that,.. up to a point. We had a Martian once.
It's true that what you get out is what you put in, but then the site is so big now that there's plenty of space to find a niche that works for you.
Becca.

Well said, Becca.

I'm feeling increasingly guilty because, with all the will in the world, there is so much work I can’t find the time to comment on. I work full-time, I'm trying to stay in touch with the two groups I'm in, as well as trying to write a novel, move house and have a life. Sometimes I feel overwhelmed by it all.

I have to say that I think groups get too high a profile on the site. I was a member of WW for a long time before I decided to join any groups. It is more than possible to participate in the site without being part of a group. I'd say, from my own experience, that there is a strong argument for members not joining any groups until they have got to know the site well enough.

Dee

there is a strong argument for members not joining any groups until they have got to know the site well enough.

I joined WW because of the groups and the possibility of getting some dispassionate criticism of my writing. I am very happy that I have got what I came for and that I have had the opportunity to put something back. I am aware that I initially got into some groups which weren't perhaps suitable for me, but I resigned from them a soon as I realised I was in the wrong place.

Perhaps we need to look at the possibility of a sort of probationary/nursery area where people who are feeling their way as emerging writers could be encouraged to work through the structure and ethos of WW before getting into WW proper.

I found the Beginners Group enormously helpful in this respect, but I resigned from there as soon as I felt I was ready for the rough and tumble of Big School

John

Hi John,
I think the beginners group serves the purpose it's intended for, gives newer writers the chance to see where they're at, fairly quickly I should think.
I like the fact that not all WW writers are at the same level of know-how, criting a piece of writing that doesn't work because the writer hasn't got all the skills honed is often really hard. As the critter you have to work out why, say so clearly, and sometimes the saying of it has to be really skilful as well, so as not to make the writer feel incompetent. That's a skill in it's own right which keeps the brain active.
Criting more experienced writers' work can sometimes just be a matter of proof-reading for typos and making more general comments, and is much less exacting.
I like the more tricky work, and if the writer is genuinely receptive, you know that the time you've spent really has helped. The other part about it is that the opinions of newer writers can be startling and fresh, and really helpful to a writer whose been at it for a long time. I think the relationship is mutually beneficial.
Wouldn't something like you suggest level up the playing field a bit much and reduce the chance for writers at 'different levels' and I say that awkwardly, talking to one another?
Becca.

Hi Dee, long time no see.
When you're not a member of a group where do you upload work, does it go to the archive, or what happens?
What I've tended to do when real life has been very demanding is not to take part in forum discussions, this is the first time for a long time I've been around this bit of WW. I think the little forum spaces over the uploads are really good because you can land in there and just let everyone know you're still about, we didn't always have those.
Becca.

I am not in favour of too much regulation, and I think group regulation works well. The synopsis group recently asked people to leave if they were not ready to post and that made room for me. If WW needs a time limit I think two months is fair, one month does not allow for problems people face in their life that take priority over this.Members also need time for concentrated periods of writing without distractions, everyone is different.
Kat

I still consider myself a memeber of the Young Adult group, even if I'm not a "real" memeber. If I upload any work, I put a note in there to let them know, I keep checking group mails and still read work by other members. I left because I'm too tied up in my own stuff to commit, but now that I have left, I find I look in there just as much. So it really doesn't make any difference. If I need help on a synopsis, I'll upload that, and put a note in the synopsis group.

It only becomes a real problem if you have a lot of "visible" uploaded work, but you can always do hyperlinks to get past that.

Actually, Becca, what I had in mind was more of an area where newbies could find out how the site works. I got myself tied in all kinds of knots trying to post stuff: some of which went, I think, to the Biro Planet. Leastways I never saw it again. We could have an FAQ area, but others may be like me and not know what question ask, so not be able to get the information they need.

I guess what I am trying to suggest is some hand holding for when you start out in WW. I found it all very confusing and a bit frustrating at first, ut, easy once you know how.

Best

John

John, good thoughts here, we'll have a think.

Hi Becca,

If you’re not a member of a group – or even if you are – you can just upload work into the general archive. It appears there just as any group work does. I have a chapter of a novel uploaded at the moment which isn’t in a group archive.

I joined the Flash Fiction group because I wanted to take part in the weekly challenge. I joined the Synopsis group because someone suggested I should host it. Otherwise I wouldn’t bother with them.

I think John’s idea of a FAQ page is good. It would help new members work out what’s going on.

Dee