If I'm not sure about whether a member is still active or not, I check their profile to see when they last commented on someone else's work, or contributed to a forum thread.

Dee

Yes, I do that too, but I was hoping I could encourage the quiet ones in the group to participate more if they got some current feedback on their work. Pointless if they are not members anymore though.

Brian.

Dreamer - currently I manually remove people when they haven't posted a work or commented within the last three months. I confess that I usually focus on groups that are full to free up spaces so some stragglers may from time to time get left in groups that aren't full.

Off to do a purge...

Blinkin 'Ell - the great WW purges! I'm scared, as I have nothing uploaded. Is that allowed Shay, or would you like to burn me at the stake?

Most WW Site Experts, I would wager, would be only too willing to help you if you approached them via WW mail, maybe they just don't have the time to sit on the Internet, like some Ancient Guru sitting by the dusty winding road, all day waiting for some poor afflicted WW member to come and ask some random question. I don't see who died and made you leader of the community anyway. The Pope? What you wrote is insulting to people who have clearly given up valuable time to help get this site up and running, and when I asked for expert help, I WW mailed the person and they responded. And surely a site expert should be that for a reason, as in they are a professional expert on a particular subject? Or am I being an idiot here?

I'm always surprised by people's faith in their work, that evil spirits are lurking out there in cyberspace waiting to nick our stuff coz its so goddamn good. So why do we need Site Experts?

I like the ghosts tho Sion, very Matrixy and stuff.

Dav, I don't want anyone burnt at the stake and I'm not trying to lead this or any other community. It's typical hyperbole from you. Maybe you're missing IB.

As for 'insulting the people who set up this site'. I have made suggestions only where I feel improvements can be made. Yes, I have been critical of dormant SE's and groups cluttered up with inactive members. Sorry, is that not allowed? Didn't have you down as the kind of person who would want to comply to a strictly ordered society where everyone knows there place.

The Brucemeister seemed happy enough with my comments and embarked on his 'purge' of the groups. To my knowledge only those who have posted neither piece nor comment in the last three months have been removed, and that's how it's always meant to have been. In my opinion if someone can't post a comment in a group they have at one time made an effort to join, then their place should be made available to someone who is able to contribute more. At one time I was Group Host of Flash Fiction, but when my personal circumstances left me with less time to read all pieces posted I resigned.

That's what I think certain SE's should do. I have a lot of respect for thos that contribute on a regular basis. I certainly don't expect any of them to float idly in cyber-space waiting for a ShayBoston piece to be posted. Personally, I don't crave the attention of any SE, but I contest the argument that WW has active SE's across all genres. I believe those SE's who went missing long ago should have had the decency to relinquish their status once they realised they would not be able to do the role justice.

No Shay, its not typical hyperbole, coz normally I wouldn't even give a second's thought to this kind of post and, yes, I do miss IB's ability to brighten up a debate rather than trawling through mindless banter about how hard done by you are coz the Site Experts aren't pulling their weight, in your opinion. Like I said, have you tried WW mailing them and asking them questions like that, or do you expect them to sit in for hours a day trawling through the huge input that goes into this site and giving comments? I dunno, coz I'm an ignorant bastard, but do they get paid much/at all? If not, I think it is asking a hell of a lot considering they are all professionals within the industry and probably have little time to give away. You seem to think a SE is obligatory, but surely they are helping out of the kindness of their hearts? Am I wrong Shay, and if so I apologise for speaking rot.

Also, the SE's are there for EXPERT opinion, not to get anyone representation or otherwise. I remember Katie from Elspeth Cochrane was superb, but didn't just sit in all day reading anything, you had to approach her nicely via WW and of course she was willing to help. Considering the poor girl probably had a slush pile the size of Mount Vesuvius that was a good show and I wouldn't expect much more to be honest.

Come on, let's get REALLY honest here. 99% of stuff on this site (mine included which is the main reason why it is no longer there) is just not even close to being ready to publish, with a view to making commercial gain and knocking established, experienced pro's off the bestseller charts, and that is why it would be a fruitless exercise to expect every SE to be there, commenting on everybody's work, helping out everyone in the sci-fi group or whatever. If you feel personally you are ready, then WW mail one of the experts and see what they reckon, keep it private and at least semi-professional.

For God's sake don't winge at them, coz then they might just decide they don't want to be site experts anymore.

If you, Shay my good man, believe that the site would be better off with the real experts purged, replaced by loyal WW members who may not have the expertise (tho they may well have the talent) but can comment alot, then I think you are severly misguided, and to be frank, you are insulting people that have given up their time to help you, which never goes down well in any walk of life, I find.

Anyway, I don't care anymore, purge who you like. History shows witch hunts always end in tears (though usually the witches but still...)

OK, Dav. I'm prepared to concede that I may have been a touch over-zealous in my comments, but I've no intention of starting a witch hunt.

I'm not sure how much of my comments you've actually read because a large chunk of your ramblings are completely unconnected to any comments I've made (look back).

You seem hell-bent on turning the issue back on me. Are you training to be a therapist by any chance? Let's get it straight. I have no personal axe to grind with any individual SE. I have never been 'rejected' by a SE. I have never felt personally let down or neglected by a SE. I HAVE on two occasions had private WW correspondence with SE's. Once when a SE mailed me about something and once when I mailed a (different) SE. On each occasion the correspondence was cordial and the kindest of regards were exchanged. So there is no 'history' between me and any SE!

I know that the SE's are all talented, successful people and as such there are always going to be other (non-WW) demands on their time. That's why Nell, Anna, Terry, James, Jubbly and perhaps one or two others deserve credit for their continued commitment to the site. But what about the others? I initially commented on observations I made when looking up SE's. I'm pretty sure that at three have gone for good. That's fine. They may not have the time to participate or may not wish to participate. That's also fine. But should they still be listed as people who are accessible to us?

Don't forget, Dav, that in the last year Nell and Jubbly have both been elevated from mere member to SE. Why couldn't others emerge from within the ranks? My writing has improved with the help of critiques from a number of 'ordinary' members. Critiquing is a skill in itself, you know.

This is an attempt to say something about what being on this site means to me. It isn't very scientific but it's honest to how I feel about it.

There's a fine balance to be found where giving and taking advice is concerned. It's a kind of dance between someone who may need help and someone who may be able to offer it. Ideally, the person needing help knows they need it, knows who to go to for it and then approaches that person with an open attitude. But in practice it's never that simple. All of us need help and all of us can help others. But the degree is everything.

WriteWords has been a learning experience for me in this respect, and my application to the site has changed as a result. I definitely have not become cynical but I have become more focussed. If you know you can help – basically, because you've been up the same path that someone else is at the start of, and have made the same mistakes they're going to make – it can be difficult not to rush in and offer help indiscriminately. But that's when you find that people are complicated. Some don't want to be helped at all; some want help but only on their terms; some want lots of help but have no intention of doing anything with it; some even ask you for help then spend huge amounts of time explaining how everything you told them is wrong; and some ask for help and act upon it and say thank you afterwards. So you try to tell which is which and therefore direct your help where it will actually be effective.

I don't critique randomly as much as I used to. This is partly through lack of time but mostly because I've learned to be more discriminate. Certainly, if I happen to see an original or funny or promising piece, I'll comment on it. I also comment on work by everyone on the Young Adult group because I believe that's part of my duty in accepting the role of Site Expert (although I'm not at all sure that's the right title for the job). All of this is my own choice. Normally, I get paid for critiquing/editing/reviewing but for some gut reason I can't explain, I believe this site is a valuable and rare place for writers to develop, if that's what they want to do. I know with every fibre of my experience that all writers have to get help – focussed, professional and expert help – if they seriously want to improve. But I also understand why many will be reluctant to seek it. There is a cost factor for one thing; and time, and commitment. I also believe that everyone has different timings in their development: just because someone isn't ready today to take a serious step forward with their writing, doesn't mean they won't be in a year's time. In the meantime, such a person still needs help.

For me, the most rewarding thing about this site is in seeing some writers truly improve, taking on board advice and then producing stories that have uplift and real humour and ideas that take your breath away. I won't mention names, but there are two people in particular whose enthusiasm and sheer determination to do the job better, I find very inspiring in my own struggles to improve. And to see their writing move forwards in leaps and bounds is very exciting. Their next struggle – although I think they already see this – will be in how to maintain their integrity while attempting to get published.


Terry

Terry, I echo much of what you say. I see writers blossom on this site and I love the opportunity to help them, if only in a small way. I believe the ones who will succeed already have the wherewithal to do it on their own, but with the help of other WW members, they can accelerate the process. I know I did. When I compare what I’m writing now with what I wrote 18 months ago, I’m deeply grateful for the help I’ve had to achieve that change.

In my own way, I appreciate the opportunity to pass on what I’ve learned to other, newer, writers. It might not stop them making the same mistakes, but maybe it will speed up that eye-opening moment for them when things start to slot into place.

You don’t need to be a site expert to do that, although I think Shay’s original comment still holds good. We all know the SEs who are active, but there are some who haven’t visibly participated in the site for a very long time. If they are working in an advisory capacity behind the scenes, fair enough, but maybe they should be re-designated as Site Advisors or something… so the rest of us are not wondering what they do to achieve their exalted status.

Dee

Terry,

I would like to add something here. I am a new member and would like to say it the short time I have been a member, the site has helped me tremendously.

I joined at the end of Feb this year. My story ‘Twas the Day Before Christmas’ has been vastly improved (in my opinion) by comments I received. Things I would not have thought of. This morning I showed it to one of my few original readers and she loved the changes.

Also, despite my initial trepidation at publicly displaying my work for the first time, I have been encouraged and given confidence by the positive feedback. The site is invaluable.

My biggest dilemma, quandary, whatever is that when I receive a really good critique from say Dee, which opened my eyes to how to improve my style, I am at a loss as to how to repay the favour. At this stage I don’t think I have much to offer her (or Richard, another one who has been really helpful) in return as they are more accomplished in the use of the language than me.

Without rambling what I am trying to say is that the site has been tremendously helpful to me. Besides all that I have been making some new friends which is fun.

Brian.

Dee, I forgot to mention that working on other people's writing is a great way to improve your own. Writing is a strange occupation, in that it's so solitary, and that can drive someone too far inside themselves, tighten up their ego, and make them feel they can do it all alone. But the more you can expose your work to others, especially non-friends/family/pets, the better. As for active and non-active Site Experts, I leave that to the bosses of the site. I guess there has to be a degree of flexibility when people are not getting paid for extra responsibility. However, I also feel that if someone clearly is no longer interested in the job, they should give it up and let someone else have a go.

Brian, I've said this before, but of all art forms, possibly the novel is the least understood by its consumers, in terms of the work that goes into it (well, probably film, too). The better the end result – the smoother the read – the greater the feeling in the reader that this was something that just poured out of the author, complete. But in fact, most novels go through many changes, some radical, and in most cases the best that can be said of the initial version is that it shows promise. And this is true for all levels of writers.

As for how you can repay people for their advice, I can't speak for Dee but I suspect the fact that you've taken the trouble to express your thanks in public will be a great return for her. Also, there's absolutely no reason why you can't reciprocate by critiquing her work. You are a reader, after all, as well as someone who's interested in the processes of writing. I'm not a musician, but I love music and can tell if a song is any good or not (well, if I like it or not, I suppose), and often know when something doesn't sound right, even if I don't know why technically.

And networks like this site provides are vital for writers. Even published authors tend to be at the mercy of a publishing world that derives a lot of strength from its interactive connections, so the more collectives we can produce the better.

Terry

All wise words from the likes of Terry and Dee, but as shay had to call my postings "ramblngs" - well, that's just plain rude innit? As I'm sure no-one wants to see another stupid pithy argument involving me, I'll just leave it at:

You seem hell-bent on turning the issue back on me. Are you training to be a therapist by any chance? Let's get it straight. I have no personal axe to grind with any individual SE. I have never been 'rejected' by a SE. I have never felt personally let down or neglected by a SE. I HAVE on two occasions had private WW correspondence with SE's. Once when a SE mailed me about something and once when I mailed a (different) SE. On each occasion the correspondence was cordial and the kindest of regards were exchanged. So there is no 'history' between me and any SE!

So what the hell are you banging on about then?

And why don’t you name and shame these people rather than this frickin cloak and dagger stuff. This is only a writers group you know, not the Masons. If Nell, Anna, Terry etc are committed, why not just use them?

In short, why do you have to start this self-righteous campaign? How is the fact some SE’s aren’t putting the time in affecting your writing? If it’s not, then surely David Bruce and the others are in a better position to decide who are site experts and who are not?

Anyway, Shay, like I’ve said more than once, I don’t care really, so go for it, kick ‘em out, the selfish bastards…

And no, I'm not training to be a therapist. Are you training to be a fascist?

And here's me thinking we'd got past all that...

Colin

Just want to point out, I don't think this has been said. For me, this site, not only has helped me improve my writing, storytelling skills, but has also restored my confidence in what I write and my purpose as a writer.

A lot of the times, it can be hit or miss, but I feel more comfortable now when I sit down now and put valuable time into writing.

This site is crucial to a beginning writer that's teetering on the edge of writing as a once-in-a-while hobby or a full-time goal.

Terry, I totally agree with all your comments - and I think I also said earlier in this thread (or maybe another one somewhere) that critiquing others helps one's own writing. Therefore, I think it is a bit finicky to get hung up on whether you are receiving as many critiques as you give out, etc.

And Shay, WW may not be perfect, but it's still the best and best value writing site on the net.

Cath

p.s. Terry, as someone who works in a 'helping' job (although not related to writing) I absolutely love this:

[q]But that's when you find that people are complicated. Some don't want to be helped at all; some want help but only on their terms; some want lots of help but have no intention of doing anything with it; some even ask you for help then spend huge amounts of time explaining how everything you told them is wrong; and some ask for help and act upon it and say thank you afterwards. [/q]

I feel like circulating it to my colleagues!