Good points, Jane, which is why I'm for making some parts public but keeping others for members only. Recently, the ww team introduced the forums front page, where useful and informative subjects are displayed to draw non-members in, maybe that would be enough to get the creative juices reaching for the credit card?
Elspeth

Good points, Jane and Elspeth.

One of the reasons, I believe, that WW is such a successful site is its openness. The supportive nature of the membership is in public view. But, as I said before, that leaves us open to abuse from freebies (not counting you, Jane! I’m thinking of you as a member already.)

The problem arises when a freebie chooses to either publicly tear a member to shreds (as happened to me recently) or react negatively to an innocent comment made in a forum thread (which is what started this debate)

David, perhaps you could take on board Elspeth’s suggestion. Perhaps we could have a list of forums visible on any search engine, and a list of those visible to paid up members only. I’m sure you could come up with a teaser to suggest to prospective members that there are more interesting discussions going on behind closed doors…

Dee

Dee, writing is scary enough anyway. Then sharing your work with strangers you happen to meet on the internet... well, that can be terrifying. Especially if you end up being berated by them, for one reason or another.

I feel that it is essential for this forum to remain open, so that newcomers can understand just how good things can be. But how to do that whilst still protecting us all from abuse?

I saw how heated things can be recently, when I was following up the Richard & Judy novel-writing competition on their forum. A friend of mine who edits a literary magazine posted there, offering advice to some of the posters (and we are talking real, solid, writing advice, which would have cost a stack of money normally), and was rounded on by other forum members who objected to her for no reason that I could see. It was dreadful (although to give her her due, she did end up giving as good as she got!). Finally all relevant threads were deleted, and several members (not my friend) banned from the forum. So nasty. I would hate to see anything like that happen here, but it's difficult to get the best balance between openness and moderation. I'd hate the job!

Jane, it’s a baby/bathwater balance. Mostly we get it right. But the openness of the forums leaves us vulnerable to trolls and predators. It’s cool, though. We usually shake down OK afterwards.

One of the reasons I am so besotted with WW is because, very quickly, it becomes not strangers, but good friends… people who have enough respect for you as a writer to not blag you with nice compliments but tell you – in a very positive way – what you need to do to improve your writing. I like that.
Dee

Hey folks,

I'm kind of hlaf and half on this but when all's said and done I think it should be a members only thing.

The one thing I'm not too happy about is that new trial members have unrestricted access to the archives. I think that this should be looked at as at the moment anyone could, if they wished, sign up and then cut and paste huge swathes of someone elses writing. Now I the chances of that happening are very very small, but still.

One solution to this is amend the pages so that the text can only be looked at and not copied and pasted. I've come across this on other sites so surely it shouldn't be too difficult to implement here.

Another problem for me is that of trial members. I often look at profiles of new people is the name sticks out or takes my fancy and recently I've seen a fair few that should be questioned if not denied access outright. Now I know it can be difficult to block someones access to the site but it is possible I think.

Anyway that's what I tihnk.

Geoff

What a bunch of xenophobic squirrels you all are.

Like anything particularly confidential is ever posted on the forums. More often it's the case that something is posted on the forums because you want to draw attention to it.

And as for the quite frankly ill-conceived idea that member-only work is somehow impervious to undesirables, consider the person who decides that, for the sake of £20, they can really piss off a load of cry-babies on a writing forum for copying all of their work and sticking it up for all to see on an anonymous website.

Hell, with the regularity of whinging about security 'issues' on this website, I'm seriously tempted to do it myself before my membership runs out.

Another problem for me is that of trial members. I often look at profiles of new people is the name sticks out or takes my fancy and recently I've seen a fair few that should be questioned if not denied access outright. Now I know it can be difficult to block someones access to the site but it is possible I think.

What's your point here Geoff? Why should anybody be denied access? I think you should share you concerns in a bit more detail.

beadle

obviously IB you've never had your work ripped off, or your work 'borrowed' by other writers, or your work used as guinea pig material by other writers to prove writing points - all behind your back.

equally you've never been trolled or stalked on the net. it happens. obviously you've never had someone take your words here and use them out of context elsewhere unbeknownst to you.

i've even heard recently of a porn site hijacking a writer's work and using it with their name on their porn site! people are nasty!

You've obviously not felt compelled to keep quiet about something in case it got back via google to someone else with a less generous turn of mind - I'm talking here of legit opinions about other writing issues if when used in certain hands can be misinterpreted.

frankly I'd rather be able to say I don't like the name of X magazine without X magazine coming in deliberately JUST to answer that point or other points brought up in a legitimate discussion. I'd rather we were able to say without slander giving our opinion and our thoughts without it having repercussions outside of this membership. if said editor wanted to be a legit member of this forum - fine. but to be able to google for comments!
it's an unnecessary intrusion into a writer's ability to express within bounds of slander a legitimate issue concerning whatever.

we should be able to express our opinions about our experiences with editors and publishers in safety.

Obviously Jardinery, you underestimate both my own experience, and my ability to react to it.

I've had my work ripped off before, and eventually decided that I didn't really care.

I've been stalked on the internet to quite a scary degree. To the point where said person was mailing me gifts and threatening me. Ultimately, it was dealt with, although I have a slight suspicion that the person ended their obsession with me by ending their life. There is no longer any trace of them, so I can't know for sure, and don't really want to. I can live with this because I've been a part of the internet for so long that this type of thing is bound to happen.

I don't feel compelled to keep quiet about anything. This is because I don't make outright slanderous comments about people who are going to care that I'm doing it, and typically speak from what I know, or from my own opinion. Magazines don't bother me, because I have no interest in them. I don't expect to be paid for my work, ever. Perhaps, if you wish to be a prt of the industry, you should refrain from badmouthing it in the first place. My standpoint is and always has been not to say anything you aren't prepared to defend.

People take my comments out of context all the time. I don't care. That level of stupidity is the problem of the person incapable of digesting english without misinterpreting it to mean something it doesn't say. I argue and spat with these hapless morons on a daily basis. There are several billion of them out there, so it's pretty pointless trying to avoid them all.

To be honest, it's looks to me like you want to discuss to sore points of individual publications without discussing those issues with the publications themselves. That's pretty stupid too. If I were the owner of some publication, I'd want to know what people were saying about my magazine so that I could make improvements. Having idiots talk about me behind my back is not only non-constructive, but out and out destructive. No-one really wins, no-one learns from the experience.

If you have some comment to pass on that you don't want certain people to come across, do it via private WW mails, e-mails or in person. Via any other method, be prepared to back up your opinion, because you will not stop other people from being able to view it without making this community so completely closed that it will inadvertently shut the door on any potential new members.

Life is shit enough as it is without wrapping everything up into a tight blanket and wrapping chains around it to suit selfish needs.

no IB not at all. I have no idea of your experiences. I can only go on mine. If I had any of the experiences you mentioned or I mentioned I would not want to court more trouble by having my words open to abuse.

and this:
o be honest, it's looks to me like you want to discuss to sore points of individual publications without discussing those issues with the publications themselves. That's pretty stupid too. If I were the owner of some publication, I'd want to know what people were saying about my magazine so that I could make improvements. Having idiots talk about me behind my back is not only non-constructive, but out and out destructive. No-one really wins, no-one learns from the experience.


- I have no sore points with individual publications - anything I have I have said openly - but there are people out there who will misinterpret words, twist anything you say even if legit to their own concerns.

I am NOT talking about sniping behind people's back re magazines. I am talking about legit experiences concerning waiting times, being professionally treated. etc - not childish sniping cos you didn't get a story accepted. you might want to talk in general terms about eth quality of a magazine and find your comments however professional come back and bite you at eth hands of unprofessional editors - there are such things.

you've taken a sanguine approach to this business and you say you don't care about being ripped off or people talking about you from comments see here - that's fine and good for you. but what about others who haven't taken that approach who hate being stalked, being ripped off etc? shouldn't a place offering membership be a safe place from that? I don't know what the Arts Club is like until I join and then once inside I know I can say and discuss legitimate professional things in eth company of other legitimate people. without being obviously open to every tom dick and psychotic's interpretation?

I don't see it as chains - quite the opposite. I see it as encouraging open and frank and professional discussion on topics important to us all. we all have the right to discuss our legitimate experiences in a membership organization. if this place wasn't open to members only where you have to pay to be part of I would say you take your choice and you risk it. but here we pay for the benefits of MEMBERSHIP and personally I'd rather that membership meant that. Members only can see what I write.

I am trying not to get annoyed at your suggestion I want to make childish snidey comments about publications. that kind of insinuation is not called for. unhelpful and without foundation.

I think this is a good solution, Dee

I'm not too bothered by the way things are at the moment. However, I did take my surname off my profile when I discovered people could find it through Google - but only because I work with schoolkids who were messing around trying to Google my name a few weeks ago! However (and I know this bothered Dav too), Google is still bringing up my profile. Someone said to me that you have to wait until Google updates its records or something, which is different lengths of times for different sites. David, do you know hoew long it takes for this one?

Cath

Paranoia paranoia everyone's coming to get me

you know the phrase - just cos you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

Maybe we just all had too many smiley faces in the past....