This is following on from Elspeth’s thread about experts.

I’ve just checked the list. We have twelve experts:

Four: Nell, Jubbly, Emilia and Rebecca Ray (who?), are novelists.
Three: Fevvers, James Graham and John Mole are poets.
One: Katie, is an agent.
Two: Emilia and Anna, are theatre/playwrite/screenwriters.
One: Richard Brown, is non-fiction.
One: Naomi Simmons, is a children’s writer.
Four: Nell, Emilia, Rebecca Ray and Becca, are short story experts.
One: Jubbly, is a comedy/drama expert.

Now, I have no experience of poetry, screen/playwriting, non-fiction or children’s fiction so I can’t comment on how balanced the number of these experts are in relation to the number of members in these specialities. But this simple analysis has shown me one fact:

We now have four experts on novel-writing. Why can these four not confer together and divi up those of us who are uploading novels?

I do understand that commenting on a novel is a big commitment but, if we, the non-expert members, can do it, surely the experts can too? There are a number of members whose novels I chose to comment on because I enjoy their work. There are also many good novels being uploaded that I don’t comment on because I recognise the limits on my own time and, in the same way, I don’t expect every other novelist to comment on my work.

On a non-expert level this ad-hoc arrangement seems to work well. Why can it not be extended, even formalised, to include the novelists among the experts?

Dee

OK. I give up.

I think you might have answered your own question there Dee: "commenting on a novel is a big commitment".

If novelists can get the first couple of chapters and a synopsis right and get good feedback on them, then it might be time to move onto agents. Asking for people to read entire novels on this site is a lot to ask, even if you know that the person in question knocks out a damn good short story. Likewise, if you have read and commented and enjoyed the first few chapters of a novel, you shouldn't feel obliged to continue.

Personally speaking; if I read the first couple of chapters of something on here I don't think I would continue to read on. I just don't, but I do look forward to hearing from that author in the "Help us celebrate when you're published" thread and see the final book on the shelf. That's the time for me to pick it up and enjoy the full thing.

Other people, like yourself, might be different and enjoy reading the full thing, but to expect anyone, including site experts, to comment on a whole novel is too much to ask.

Colin M

You’ve missed the point I was making, Colin, which is that some experts seem to be selective about whose work they comment on, regardless of what it is. And the fact that none of them have responded to this thread is disappointing but, sadly, not surprising.

But I’m disturbed by some of your other comments. Are you saying this is a writers’ community for everyone except novelists? Are you suggesting I shouldn’t upload a novel? Do you think I and the other novelists on the site are wrong to do that?

Dee.

No, I don't think you're wrong Dee, certainly not to upload a novel. What I was saying is that it might be a bit much to expect people to comment on a full novel.

I see this site as a great source of support. The comments help us improve our work and get a little closer to our goal, but there must come a point where you think, "right, this is as good as I can get it, let's chuck it in the deep end and see if it swims"

Is this coming across right?

Colin M

I know what you’re saying, Colin, but I don’t agree.

Writing a novel is not about getting the first few chapters right. It’s about sustaining the plot, the characters and the quality of the writing through to the last word.

I uploaded the whole of Paying For The Gallery and right up to the final chapter I was getting comments and suggestions that improved it. I’m deeply grateful to everyone who took the full ride with me but I NEVER assumed or expected that anyone would read all or any of it. And certainly not out of some misguided sense of obligation.

Dee.

Hi Dee, I agree with Colin that it's a huge commitment to comment on a whole novel. However, as I can see that you have a loyal band of commentators on your word, I certainly wouldn't stop uploading it. Just don't feel demoralised if not many people follow it all the way through.

As for expert input, yes, it would be nice to have comments particularly on opening chapters (although preferably on the whole chapter, and not just a paragraph or two). However, as I've said before, I think that feedback from non-experts on this site - enthusiastic readers who might ultimately buy your books when they get published - is incredibly valuable.

I was thinking about this subject last night whilst watching Late Review. Tom Paulin (whom, incidentally, I find enormously entertaining) was saying how appalling he found both de Berniere's lastest novel and that he also thought Captain Corelli's Mandolin was junk. Paulin is an Oxford English don and a successful poet, and I certainly consider him to be an expert. However, not to get in the way of a good rant, he did not consider what ordinary readers had liked about de Berniere's work. Speaking for myself I found the first one hundred or so pages of Captain Corelli's Mandolin to be very hard work, and only continued reading because I'd heard such good things about it from friends and acquaintances (word of mouth is so important!). But by the end of the book I had been moved to tears (and novels very rarely make me cry).

My point is though that I think that if the opening chapters of Captain Corelli's Mandolin had been critiqued by experts, he may well have been told to think again, and may never have completed a very enjoyable book.

Phew, this posting is much longer than I intended it to be. Must get back to my own book.

Adele.

I have never disputed that commenting on a whole novel is a big commitment. In fact it was me who first said it at the start of this thread.

I don’t know how many different ways I can repeat how much I trust and value the comments from the ‘non-experts’ on this site.

I think the only good bit of CCM was when the snails escaped!

And that’s my last word on this thread before anything else I say is misunderstood.

As Davey Skyflier would say, Easy Tiger! I don't think you are being misunderstood. All I was trying to do was convey my humble opinion that expert views are far from the be all an end all. I have no idea what their criteria for commenting on work are, but clearly I fail to meet them too!

Btw, I don't remember the snails!

Oh well, back to the grindstone.

Adele.

Dee, I've just found this thread, which is why I haven't answered it before now. I find it a huge committment to begin reading a novel, even one that hooks me from the first page and makes me want to read on (although I have read at least one from start to finish). I feel that having begun I should continue, otherwise it looks as though I've lost interest when that's not the case. The rate at which the author uploads it is another problem; sometimes I can't keep up whilst remaining active in commenting on others' work, sometimes there are huge gaps between chapters and it's all too easy to lose the thread. I'm not at all sure what the answer is, I can only say that I'm happy to follow through with novels loaded up to Fiction 11 (as long as the sections are not huge), and that I always comment on every piece in that group.

It's possible too that I'm not the only one who's just discovered this thread - I'm sure they'd reply if they had.

Nell...

<Added>

And I'd just like to say that as readers all here are almost certainly experts.

Hi Dee, I've only just found this thread too. I was extremely flattered to be asked to become an 'expert' and thrilled by the reaction of the site members. However, though I've had work broadcast both on telly and radio and I've been published, (a bit) in book form and online, I certainly don't consider myself an expert when it comes to novels. I've had a stupendous lack of sucess in getting my own novel into print and I'm learning all the time. I haven't commented on your novels , simply because so many other members have. I did follow another member's entire novel and I was the only one that did. He received a couple of other comments but I stuck with it, yes out of an obligation and because it was set in the area of London where I live and I felt I could be helpful, which I hope I was. Before I became and expert, Becca and Anna were the only other two experts, who ever commented on my work and I soon realised that they were extremely busy people and I was lucky to get their attention. The past few weeks have been very busy for me for a number of reasons, but I hope to prove more useful in the coming months.

Hope I made up for it in the meanwhile, Jubbly!
Becca.

If it's of any use, and I think I read something relating to this on another similar thread?
Anyway, what happens is you get a 'site expert email notification schedule' which asks how many pieces of work you want signalled up per week. In my case it's three. Then you say what groups you want them to come from.
So I don't know what is coming my way. I don't chose them. But after I've done that I look on short story 1, fiction 1 and the horror site, depending on how much time I've got I'll read what I can. Sometimes I can get to read a lot, other times I just can't.
I think Jubbly said this as well, and I did too, .. read large chunks of novels a good few times, but had to give it up, and stick with the shorts in the end.
I hope this is helpful.

Oh Jubbly, I thought you'd said I never read your work, not was the only one who along with Anna.
Becca.

I know that Dee's point relates primarily to novels, but owing to the various discussions on this subject lately, I would like to make a point myself.

I confess, I rarely comment on members work on the site. Apart from looking through some flash fiction or short stories, I don't have the time. Also, it wouldn't be very fair on the people who've posted submissions to me and have been waiting weeks and weeks to hear back from me.

However, I have endeavoured to 'earn' my expert status through the forums by offering advice and intiating discussions on query letters and unsolicited submissions. After all, as Keeper of the Slush Pile, this is my area of so-called expertise.

My other reason for not commenting on work is that despite claims to the contrary, I find some members can be hostile to criticism. Publishing books is a business. I work for a book-related business. My 'expert' label is dependant on this, and any feedback I give will undoubtably be coloured by it. And I have become exhausted from trying to avoid offending people.

So those are my reasons, for what they're worth. But I know that many other experts provide valuable feedback to many writers.

I think a lot of it comes down to simple maths. Dee names 12 experts. And there are how many members?....
Katie

<Added>

Apologies for the rant. :)

I was trying to make a point at the beginning of all of this, but I think I tried to be so careful not to offend that I think I missed it. What I was trying to say is: How much support and positive comments do you need before you have the confidence in your work to send it off?

If it looks good enough then there are people out there who will read the whole novel because it is in their interests, financially, to do so. After all, it could be a big, big seller.

And saying that you can't appreciate a novel by a glimpse at a few chapters and a synopsis might be true(ish) but that's the boat we're all in. In my last two attempts at novels I was convinced that if someone was to read the whole thing and "get it" then I'd be published in a flash. I was convinced because I was sure the plot was that good.

The plots were good. Unfortunately my writing was shit.

Eeh by gum, it's a right old game innit?

Colin M