This is following Marlo's two posts in his (I'm assuming you're male) group which did not get noticed. What are the point of groups? I believe the official line is that if you post in a group your work might get critiqued by a site expert. Okay, but if the groups exist, surely there ought to be some sort of group activity/solidarity i.e. committment to read other people in the group's work. Of course, I don't believe this should be an obligation, after all we are the clients (?), having paid to join this site, but otherwise what is the point of forming a group?

I think, the site is growing fast and the site experts cannot be expected to follow all the activity especially in the fiction category, also they have their own writing to do, I imagine. So, is the solution more site experts or some lesser experts (better name could be found, I'm sure!) - people who hae accumulated a lot of points and proved to be dedicated to helping others improve their writing. These people could head different groups in a more official capacity (paying less or no membership fee)

Any opinions or alternative suggestions?

Elspeth

ps I notice a lot of the original site experts have disappeared but are still being advertised...


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pps I'd better add, I'm not proposing myself for the job, I'm just suggesting improvements.

I was a member of two groups which I later resigned from because 1. There was no activity in there 2. And I failed to understand what the point of the group was because of No. 1 - so I'd be interested to hear what the point of a group is also.

Also, in regards to Site Experts - yes there are only a handful of them to a growing number of site members but I've noticed that when they do comment on work they seem to do so on the work of the same members and very occasionally on new members. I've noticed this a lot on the poetry site experts. Yes, admittedly, I'm annoyed that no 'site expert' has ever commented on any of my work and I'm pretty sure that's not because my work isn't good enough to be commented on by an 'expert' but one can't help but feel slightly miffed that a high percentage of damned good writers are not being critiqued.

We all need this 'service' no matter how good we may think we are otherwise, why have we become members of 'writing circle'? We are constantly learning and improving our techniques thanks to the efforts of fellow writers (non experts)who do make a point to offer constructive criticism so maybe Elspeth's suggestion about using a different word other than 'expert' and an official capacity given to a greater number of regular work critics. That way the 'experts' won't feel too burdened with the growing number of members who need their advice simply because they're 'experts'.

Gosh, I hope y'all can make sense of that!

N

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P.S. I'm not having a go at the site experts - so please no-one take this personally.

Good question, Elspeth.

I joined a group but left eventually because there was no activity and I didn’t receive any comments from site experts (what does it take?).

I’ve just looked at the list of experts and I’ve never heard of some of them. I wonder how often they’re reviewed?

I suppose one of the problems is that more and more people seem to be uploading novels (I’m as guilty as anyone!) and it is something of a commitment to read. If I start commenting on a novel I feel that I ought to follow it through to the end – which is why there are some novels I don’t even start reading, much as I’d like to, because I know I won’t have the time, long-term.

And speaking of members who help others improve their writing… I wonder where Nell is these days? She’s usually one of the first to encourage new members but I haven’t seen her commenting for a while now…

Dee
x

On the subject of groups, I find it pretty miffing when I spend time reading through a piece of work, making notes as I go, only to find a message at the end saying it can only be commented on by group members. This has just happened to me twice in succession this afternoon. What is the point in letting us see the work if we can’t comment on it?

I’m off back to the Winter House (shameless plug # 694)

Dee

Just thought I'd bring this to people's attention, in case they missed it over the weekend. Any other thoughts?

Hello, I never joined any groups because I thought that would imply a commitment to critique other people's work that I don't want to make. It's hard for me to plan ahead at the moment and know how much free time I'll have. I assumed not joining a group was why I hadn't had any expert comments (apart from Julie, before she took on the expert role). But that didn't bother me unduly, as I'm just as interested in 'non-expert' views from people who like reading since these, I hope, are my potential readers, should I ever get published. However, reading Marlo's post, it doesn't sound like I'm missing anything.

Adele.

Speaking as a site 'expert' (though I've never claimed to deserve the moniker!) I do find it difficult to look at work on the site. I just don't have the time to sit and read very much on here when I'm working; and I hate reading long pieces on a computer screen; it gives me headaches.

I do try to respond to specific questions or requests to read something, so in my case, I would say ww mail me.

As for the other experts, I feel I must point out the obvious. Whilst members may pay for the services of the website, the experts are not paid for those services that relate to them, so it's not really surprising that there's a lack of activity. Like a lot of the members, we're busy people with a job to do and a boss to answer to.

And no, I'm not saying experts should be paid! And I know no one's having a go at the experts, just thought I'd chip in my tuppence worth.

Katie

Hi Katie,
Thanks for giving your point of view. There is no way I was critisizing the site experts. I greatly appreciate their (your) input and personally, my writing has improved with their (your) help. Plus, of course, everyone knows how busy you all are. I was questioning the purpose of the groups and wondering how we could make them more active so that newcomers don't get neglected.

Elspeth

Thanks everyone else for your comments - it seems that the group membership has been disappointing for a few of you.

Dee,

I totally agree. Well said.

Elspeth,

Glad to hear (sincerely) that you are so busy and personally I've WW mailed you with a very general question twice, to no avail. Perhaps the experts should consider their workload before agreeing to sign on...

Cheers

Harry

Site experts are free to comment on whatever they want to, or about which they feel they can be most helpful. Obviously, as Katie has pointed out, a whole novel is a bit daunting to a busy person but I, for example, have commented on chapters of full length non-fiction works.

In fact, there’s a huge range of comment made by a variety of our experts - on group and archive work and across most genres and types of writing. Some experts are more available than others - some like to be connected with the site and keep an eye on the writing but don't have the time to comment on individual pieces. But we're still proud to have these experts on board. All are people whose experience, be it as writers, agents or whatever, makes them invaluable contributors to the site. It’s true, though, that experts do tend to comment within groups as it's obviously easier to locate a certain type of work by category rather than having to trawl through several days’ worth of uploaded pieces.

One of the heart-warming aspects of the site, I feel, is the generosity of writers towards each other, and again this is where the groups are useful. People can focus on the areas of work that interest them most. Inevitably, though, groups vary from extremely lively to sedately contemplative. From time to time I try, with non-fiction, to speed up the pace. There are flurries of activity every now and then but mostly we just bump pleasantly along.

As for the setting of exercises, this does happen. Anna’s beginners’ group is based largely on exercises and I have done this with some of the non-fiction groups, as have other experts in their areas. (Anyone who reads this and fancies having a go at the three extant journalism exercises – please join the group and get writing!)

I agree is it frustrating to read something all the way through only to find that the work is ‘group members only’ when it comes to posting comments. Perhaps we could have the restriction notice at the head of the piece rather than at the end. But the point of allowing the option to limit comment is to maximise freedom to writers. Some people just want their work to be seen without any comeback from people other than the group members they have got to know. Fair enough, we feel.

It is true that the site had been steadily growing and we are continually looking for ways to manage the expansion. The increase in the number of writers makes, we feel, for an ever richer experience. The site has become, as we always hoped it would, a true community of writers with wonderful genre-specific sub-cultures. However, we are constantly thinking about the operation and striving to improve it.



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Richard.

I wonder if people's expectations of what this site is for are too high.

It occurs to me that the site is an on line writers group and in a similar way we post work and others are free to comment upon it. Unlike many writers group it has a large, active and changeing membership additionally it has a group of members who through good fortune,exceptional talent, hard work or perhaps good luck are published or have expertise in a particular area who are designated EXPERTS.

Thus we post work and if our peers have time and the inclination we receive comment most of it helpful and constructive. Equally due to other commitments there are times when critque levels may be less or non existant.

OK I have stated the obvious now for the points system

What purpose does it serve probably none I take no notice of it whatsoever otehr than make the assumption that those with 'nil or very low points' are new memebrs and welcome them accordingly.

It occurs to me that a more indicative system would be if the sytem recorded the number of unique hits on a piece of work that would provide the author with a good indication a sto the popularity or otherwise of their piece especially as I am sure many read work and don't comment and it would get round the 'group only' element to a degree.

I am not sure what the value of the groups are other than it makes it a little more cosy, perhaps they were more relvent at the beginning when the number of members was small than now.

These topics keep recurring so I guess they are of great concern to some if not all but then debate is healthy

take care all

david

by the way I am very busy at present so have little time to read work and comment upon it

Dee, I am still here... although not so active in fiction as before, and I'm keeping up with Fiction 11. I have to confess to a purely selfish motive for spending more time with the poets and less with the fiction writers - the novel I'm working on at the moment contains some verse, and unlike the poems in my first novel (which were written by the eccentric heroine and therefore slipped from my typing fingers like honey from hot toast) these have to be 'good', and so I'm trying to hone my poetic eye in order to make them so. The problem is time; I don't watch TV, I'm up at six, yet the day seems to disappear before I've achieved anything.

I do feel that the groups are useful in that there is an implied obligation to comment on each other's work, current circumstances permitting of course. As for group activities, well, I think that's up to what the members of each group want. The group forums are useful for suggestions of this kind. Another reason for my curtailed activity in fiction is the explosion of growth of WW over the last six months; it seems that there are enough members to ensure that no one's work is neglected, and some of the members whose work I made a point of following have disappeared.

As someone said, commenting on novels is a huge committment, having begun one feels that it's only fair to continue, and again time is the difficulty. The lack of expert comment is a tricky one, again the problem is time, and hours can slip by in reading and commenting on just a few pieces, yet we're all readers, so theoretically at least, each comment from a fellow member is valuable.

I feel too that the points system is useful for seeing which members actually comment on work, and which members invite comments yet give none in return, and I'm not just saying that because I have an embarrassing number myself, promise!

There probably are answers to all the above concerns, and some suggestions have been put forward, nevertheless given the current membership and the rate at which work is posted it would take an army of experts to commment on every piece of work.

Overall I believe we have a great community here that works really well - compare it to other similar sites and you'll see what I mean. WW is IMHO the best on the web.

Nell.

I rather enjoy the Group Experience, but then I'm in what I think are a couple of the best where there's lots of activity, ( which to my shame I don't always keep up with!), and good productive members/Experts. It was a different story when I first joined as the two I chose then were very dead, which was a bit disheartening and confusing.

I can see both sides of the Experts debate, though generally am very inpressed with the ones I've run into, (and I take the point that I do get comments from them, so I have every reason to be OK with it).
One or two do seem VERY infrequent visitors, and whilst one applauds their good intentions, it does seem strange to take something like this on and then not be able to devote a certain amount of time to it. I don't know how to ensure comments are spread more 'fairly' - other than to have more groups and persuade an Expert to oversee each one and pretty much JUST comment within the group, (when I first joined I thought this was the idea). But there are not enough Experts to do this and I guess they may feel it restricts them unfairly...
I do think a number of WW members who are accomplished, thorough commenters could be upgraded to Expert status - no names, but I think it's obvious who they are...Or perhaps have another level of commenters just below the Experts, who could spread their insight about more and ensure greater coverage?
x
tc

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My idea of Demi-Experts already been propesed, I see now that I read the thread properly! Well, I second/third it!

Glad you’re still around, Nell.

You’re right, of course. This is the only site worth bothering with – which is meant as a reflection of the high standards of this site as opposed to the quality of any other.

Whatever gripes we have about WW (like its endearing little way of repeatedly telling me that my one-month trial membership has ended!) I would hate to be without it.

Dee

x

Just tried to participate in what appears to be a very interesting thread started by an expert and… guess what? Been totally ignored.

As most people realise (I hope), I love this site and spend a great deal of time trying to help other writers in return for the enormous encouragement I get from other members.

I have to wonder though – and I know I’m not the only one feeling this way – what do we have to do to get a response from an expert? I understand what people say about the opinions of ‘experts’ v the opinions of anyone else. But there does seem to be a culture where some people can regularly expect comments from experts and others can not.

I think I have a fair amount of experience as a writer now but I still want expert feedback… I need help from experienced writers – which is one of the reasons I value this site… but I’m not getting it. I do appreciate the comments I’ve had on my work from other members but I have to wonder why I’m being blackballed by the experts…

Dee.