You incorrectly think to judge me, hibs, but your point works against you.

Brought up in essential poverty in areas where thinking often earned you little better than a showdown in the playground, and with parents that never really indicated any interest in my education, I broke all the unwritten rules to wind up popular and academically succesfull. Why? Because as a kid I had a dream, and while that dream has faded into ash, the embers of ambition lit by that dream still burned well into my late teens. Being ignorant has always felt to me like finishing last, and I don't give a damn about anyone who wants to carry on regardless.

And while I won't argue against your opinion - you're entitled to it - of "who am I to judge them" about how they may go about their lives, when the 'geared for a fight' kids finally hurt someone close to your heart, I wonder how much conviction your words will have.

Some people try to make me uncomfortanle about how easily I judge people - lots of people. Because of course, there are always those who don't fit into my condescending little stereotypes. But sitting on my pretty little high-horse, as I love to do, and being as I am, surrounded by an infinite supply of examples of human pulp, desperate stupidity and irrevocable selfishness, on a general scale, I'm yet to be proved wrong.

Hibernian --

Hi, I hope I'm not repeating something that has been said between my present post and your initial post, but I just have to say something. I certainly wasn't denigrating the quality of the teaching of the teachers themselves (if that makes sense), but rather the methodology employed. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say.

Here I have had to rely on hearsay, as I did not go through the educational system in this country; however, I have been told that around the 70s, the emphasis shifted in English language teaching (for native speakers of English). I have certainly noted that among my contemporaries, there are serious problems writing the English language, so I am inclined to say that the results of this methodological shift speak for themselves.

Ani

ooh, sorry, Richard - we must have posted at about the same time - I had only seen IB's message when writing.
Look: I, along with your grandparents from the poor pit-village, think language is important. I love language. I always have. I get the greatest kick from intelligent wordplay (have you read Jitterbug Perfume? Such fun!)
I am aware of the difference between the vernacular and the illiterate. I know full well that "apple's n orange's" is not literate. I just don't think that stomping into the shop and showing how clever you are by making a joke at someone else's expense is going to help matters any. It is legitimate to instruct children in schools, or adults who have volunteered for further education. It is just rude and patronising to lecture an adult (that you don't know) about how s/he should spell things. Yes, the slipshod should not pass unremarked-upon, but there are forums for remarking-upon and somebody's local fruitshop (or wherever) is not one of them.
So you find language easy. So you enjoyed English in school. So you get a thrill from a well-turned phrase. I understand. But here's the thing: Other people don't have that advantage. Some people find grammar difficult, believe it or not. Maybe it is easier for them to say it is not relevant to them than to say they find it difficult - maybe they just don't find it relevant, who knows? And who are you to make that judgement? How do you know that you're not just embarrassing somebody when you so cleverly point out the flaws in their grammar?
The socio-economic argument is relevant. The guy writing "apple's 20p" almost certainly did not go to Cambridge. (and, conversely, why shouldn't the proprieter of the local fruit and veg win the Pulitzer? And yes, I was in full flow, and I exaggerated when I mentioned literary prizes. I'm sorry)
Now, I know I've gone on a bit of a rant here, and I don't mean any of it personally. I just feel really strongly that it's all very easy for those of us with decent educations and a feeling for language to be sneery and smug when we see, for example, badly-written shop signs. It seems to me we should have a bit more respect for people who, just because they found English grammar difficult at school or left school early or whatever, are not what we would consider "up to scratch".

<Added>

that is, IB's FIRST message... I'm not keeping up very well...

and IB, I did NOT think to jusge you, I just asked you a question that I have often asked myself - and I'm wondering just what point it is that's working against me? In essence, I kind of agreed with a lot of your rant, I just felt that I should question myself (and you) for doing so. i was not trying to make you uncomfortable by questioning how quickly you judge people. I just thought it was interesting.
I'm delighted that you are both popular and academically successful, but as you point out yourself this is despite your background rather than because of it. You obviously had the intelligence and the determination to get places of your own volition. Other people lack these qualities. You blame them for this. I don't. Yes, I hate (and have hated, and do hate) the person who steals from me, or hurts people I love. But I recognise this as a personal, rather than an objective perspective, that's all.

Ah, Hib. . . but you're doing it again. . .

No point in attributing to someone characteristics you may perceive but which are not, in fact, accurate.

I don't go in and sneer. In fact, most times, I don't go in at all. But if I feel like being irritated with smugness -- not the smugness of the informed, but that of those who couldn't care less, and revel in that ignorance like pigs in muck -- ten I am indeed tempted to go make fun.

Because I can. Because I use language. Because I want them to use language and their kids and their grandkids. I want them to be able to fulminate like IB does, because what he says -- far better than anything I ever said -- is so mind numbingly true:

The ignorant come last.

And deep down, if I am having fun, it's because I actually do respect people. Otherwise I'd just leave 'em to it -- have no care for our world, our fellow beings, our collective future. I'd just sod off out of it and think well, better be careful here. Don't want anyone to think I'm being too, er, judgmental. I'll just keep shtum and bask in my own happy superiority.

Which -- I think -- is the major flaw in your argument here. To address a problem with language, wth communication, is not to address a flaw (real or otherwise) in a person's intellectual make-up. If I think a piece I read on WW needs improving, then if I can comment constructively, I'll do so. But that comment isn't directed at the person.

There is a difference. . .

Onwards 'n Downwards!

Richard







<Added>

Oops. I'm in the middle of m'tea here, so everything's in haste if not in gravy.

Hib -- what's all this about forums within which to deal with problems of illiteracy? I can just see me having a word with Tub, or ol' Loo, and saying hey, I don't want to be thought to be rude in your shop, but when you've a moment, would you like to log on to WriteWords?

Some hope, huh?

Ah Richard...the person on WW has asked for criticism and the person in the shop hasn't. They won't love language just because you point out a few wonky apostrophes!
Anyway, I give up now. We'll have to agree to differ! But thanks for a good argument - I've enjoyed it! Hope your tea was nice.
Jo

Jo

Be careful with that assumption. There a number of people who put work on this site who do NOT want criticism of their grammar, punctuation or spelling.

Believe me. I have felt their wrath!

John

God, really? I'd better be careful! Thanks for the tip, John!

It is not the future it is most certainly the present. People ar already doing it. It is simply a fprm of shorthand. I don't know of any books written in shorthand, so I think that it will stay as a mobile phone phenomenon. Anyway, aren't there phones these days that anticipate words and type them out for you in full these days? I haven't had amobile for acouple of years now, and don't feel the need for one. Am I alone in this?

Nick

Nick
Someone on the site was saying that there is indeed a book that has been written in the mobile phone 'text' language. I'm sure there's a better word for it, but I don't know it!
Perhaps it's called 'texting'! Not sure.

And sorry, I have a mobile - and a laptop, and a pda and a gps unit. I'm saving up for an anorak!

John

I believe the phrase you're looking for is 'txt tlk'.

Or, as I prefer to call it, 'idiot speak'.

Thanks, IB.

I think I prefer 'idiot speak'as well.

John

I've really enjoyed following the debate on this thread. It's incredible that a comment on text talk - sorry, txt tlk - has brought up so many issues: The state of the education system, class, 'Americanisms',freedom of expression, coral reef depletion, the value of old calculators and parental licensing to name but a few. But one thing they all seem to have in common is a love and concern for our language which, I think, at the risk of sounding sentimental, is a very fine thing indeed.

Harry

I'll drink to that, Harry, you sentimental old thing, you!