OK, so I'm not really expecting anyone to say 'No, don't sign up!', but I was interested to read people's opinions on the usefulness of the site. I was slightly miffed to discover I couldn't join more than one forum as a trial member, as I wanted to give the site a proper try out before paying-out.

My situation is that I'm a mother of three teens, in my forties and unable to work due to caring responsibilities. I've always written, since childhood, and have had quite a bit of non-fiction stuff published. But my true passion is science-fiction and I'd love to be able to write my own sci-fi novel.

I have started a library full of novels (not all sci-fi) but always run out of steam, basically due to my love of complex plots that get a little too complicated. Then I studied a part-time degree in politics and put my fiction on hold for a few years.

I did a short creative writing course last year and discovered to my horror that I can actually write stuff I make-up (who knew?). So now, having recovered from the strains of constant studying, I've committed to actually finishing a novel - forget getting it published, or even getting beyond the first draft, I just want 70-90,000 words that makes some sort of sense!

I've written one chapter (3.5k words), but now I'm thinking I need to expand it to maybe three chapters. My problem is not the writing itself, or the characters - its the plotting.

Fundamentally, I know how it starts, I have many ideas of sense that are going to happen, but events have to happen in the right order and that's the problem. So for instance, scene A has to happen before scene B, which has to happen before scene C, but then I realise I need scene D, which has to happen between scenes A and B, but with information from C, which hasn't happened yet! It's a bit like knitting after a kitten's been at it.

Can this site help disentangle a mess of a plot and help me make sense of it all?

I'd also like to know what the heck happens to my characters beyond "And they all lived happily ever after... until they were eaten by a giant space goat" (only joking - that's Douglas Adams).

What can I say?

I like it here, it works for me and has given me a lot.

There are others...

It depends what you want, really.

I think it would be disloyal to list alternatives here, but there are others that offer a different mix - one I know if offers a lot of networking (which I find repugnant) but precious little in the way of useful critique. Another I know of is massively more lively (but suffers from too much activity, if there is such a thing and you never quite know who or what may comment on your work). Still another is a lot more about the chat around the industry...

Can this site help disentangle a mess of a plot and help me make sense of it all?

No.

But then, nobody apart from the writer of that mess of a plot can sort it out.

The groups are good for testing out your ideas and will give you good feedback on what works and doesn't (Intensive Critique especially, I would say... but I am slightly partisan as I used to be a member).

Quality of advice here is good and there are a lot of people who have made it to publication... and back again. The culture is sensible and intelligent.

For me, the subscription was worthwhile. For you... can't answer that.

G

Can this site help disentangle a mess of a plot and help me make sense of it all?

Not as such, but if you ask the right questions about plotting in general you will get some very good and useful advice.

Terry Edge is out resident sci-fi person, if you have specific sci-fi questions he will help you out, I'm sure.

So I would say yes, join WW and join the sci-fi group. You will get your twenty pounds' worth, I'm sure.

<Added>

And welcome, by the way!

I should think you'd get your money's worth out of Terry alone
seriously, though, it works for some, doesn't for others. Has for me for ages. We have quite a lot of published members compared to other sites, if that interests you.
welcome anyway

OK, so I'm not really expecting anyone to say 'No, don't sign up!', but I was interested to read people's opinions on the usefulness of the site. I was slightly miffed to discover I couldn't join more than one forum as a trial member, as I wanted to give the site a proper try out before paying-out.

Hi Ada - I'm a fairly new member (three months or so?) and have found that it's not so much the individual groups (I think you meant you wanted to join more than one group but I could be wrong) that I find useful as the general forum. That's because the questions I have tend to be ones where I don't need to tell anybody anything about my work-in-progress, but are general questions which arise as I'm working on it, such as, in dialogue, is it old-fashioned to write "said Bert" rather than "Bert said". Your situation might be different, but I've found the site worth the fee for the help I've had in getting my questions answered (which has always happened very promptly because everyone is so helpful here!).

Fundamentally, I know how it starts, I have many ideas of sense that are going to happen, but events have to happen in the right order and that's the problem. So for instance, scene A has to happen before scene B, which has to happen before scene C, but then I realise I need scene D, which has to happen between scenes A and B, but with information from C, which hasn't happened yet! It's a bit like knitting after a kitten's been at it.

I'm writing my first novel and I was surprised how much time plotting it took - actually more than the writing itself. It took a lot of thinking, modifying, ditching some plot bits, putting in others and so on before I was ready to start writing (and even then it turned out I'd stuffed it up).

Do you think you might be so keen to get on with the actual writing that you're not spending as much time as you need on the plotting beforehand?

I found that when I was writing my first draft I would suddenly find myself needing a character to deal with something that I hadn't established earlier. When that happened (joys of word processing!) I immediately went back and inserted the necessary thing earlier in the text. But if you've got real problems of impossible ordering, as in your A, B, C, D example, something's got to give and that sounds like it's a matter of making hard choices.

This is maybe too woolly to help (no pun intended).

Actually, Ada, I should have asked if you create a detailed plot before you start or are one of those writers who make it up as they go?

If you've been doing the latter, what would you think about doing the former?

Hello and welcome

I've been here over two years now, and I've found it invaluable. People are immensely helpful and no question is considered too daft (and believe me, I've asked a few!)

As regards plot, I absolutely know where you're coming from - my plots have more strands than a plate of spaghetti I think I'd echo Toast, and ask how much you plan out the plot in advance. What I've found helpful is to have a rough plan sketching out the story arc and a very rough outline of each chapter, which I then adjust as I go along.

At this stage, are you able to envisage some kind of ending, or at least direction, to the plot?

I can honestly say, having done various courses and read lots of books about writing, that this community has been probably the most useful tool in developing my writing and getting me to the stage where I'm agented. And you'll find that not only do people understand where you're coming from with each thorny issue you're tackling, but there are many professionals who can offer brilliant advice.

Sign up!!! Don't hesitate

Thanks guys,
I am a recent (mature) politics graduate, so all my 'training' has been to plan, plan, plan and know where you're aiming to get before you start to go there.

I used to try to write things off-the-cuff and was spectacularly unsuccessful - before I started my degree I was convinced I couldn't write essays to order, so I originally intended to study maths! But then I did an essay-based course and discovered the joys of planning.

I have experimented with various writing methods, before and since, but now I'm pretty sure that planning as much as possible before writing a word is the way to go for me. As I said in another post, I suspect I just under-estimated just how much work that would be!

My main problem is that I find all this thinking painful and would like to be able to just do a complete info-dump from my brain onto the page and for it to come out like Shakespeare. But I suspect even Shakespeare wished that.

Yes, join. It's worth it.

This site has been an enormous source of support in what can be a difficult and frustrating journey towards publication. I'd say it was worth joining for that alone.

Can this site help disentangle a mess of a plot and help me make sense of it all?

You probably know that old Irish joke about the tourist who asks a local for directions; the local starts to give them, stops, starts again then says, "If I was you, I wouldn't be starting from here."

I suspect your question may not really be so much to do with plots as in what you actually want from your writing and the price you're prepared to pay for it.

I'm meeting a writing group this week, for example, made up of very new-to-writing people, and we're at the stage where I need to ask them again what they want from their writing. I did this right at the start and now need to do it again because they're at the stage of having to decide if they're happy staying at a casual/amateur level or want to start the movement towards a more committed approach.

When I decided to switch to SF/Fantasy about seven years ago, I looked for whatever would help me best. Perhaps because I was looking for it, I found out about the six-week full-time courses in the USA. It was clear such a course would not only help me develop the skills I'd need for the genre, it would help get me connected to other SF writers/editors, etc. It would also be a crucial note to add to my cover letters when sending out short fiction. Maybe a caveat is needed here: I was experienced enough to know that such courses are not going to be the answer to everything. They may only provide one or two small advantages at the end of the day; but it's those small advantages that are crucial in such a competitive industry. In the event, I actually got a lot more out of it than expected.

Okay, it's not easy putting aside 6 weeks and the expense involved. But then there are also very good two-week and one-week courses in SF/Fantasy. They're all in the US but then I guess a person has to prioritise. Most of us go on a foreign holiday once a year; the cost would be similar to doing a course. (Happy to point you in the direction, if you're interested.)

Do you have to do courses? No, but I feel that most people have to do something. Otherwise, you're relying on luck, pretty much.

Another thing you could do is write short fiction. Yes, I know you want to write a novel. But sometimes we have to adapt our skills to the industry in question. SF is blessed with an abundance of high-quality short fiction markets. Yes, it's very competitive (I just sold a story to a magazine that received 800 submissions for that issues alone), but it's a great way of getting your name noticed, of building your CV, so that you can later sell your novel more easily. And here's the thing: why not do both short fiction and a novel?

And if you really want to accelerate your SF/Fantasy short fiction skills, do everything you can to get on Kris Rusch's short story workshop in Oregon. Yes, it's an expense but, really, what art or sport doesn't involve time and cost if you really want to improve at it?

There is a whole ton of other stuff you can do, too! Go to EasterCon and FantasyCon (and World FantasyCon next year - it's in Brighton); meet people; let them know your name. The SF community is very friendly and enthusiastic. You can approach editors in the dealers' rooms, tell them how much you like their books, send them a story with a nice 'Good to meet you note . . . '

As for whether or not it's worth joining this site, again, I don't think it's a case of weighing up cost vs worth exactly. It's all about finding small but vital connections. There are some incredibly talented and experienced writers on this site who are always dropping in valuable tips or views. But I think if you work from the stark question of whether or not the site will fix your novel, then I agree with others that the answer is probably no.

You're right, Leila: I can't stop once I start!

Terry

Belated Hi, Ada, and welcome to WW. Lots of good advice here - hope you're finding what you need!

Terry,
I hear what you're saying - and I do think courses can be incredibly useful. However, as I'm disabled and also a carer to my autistic son, it would be impossible for me. I'm not even able to get to the local library for the writers group - hence I'm on here!

I have done two short courses via distance learning. The last one was largely about short story writing and I learned a lot. Best of all, my tutor was such an amazing encouragement and showed me that many of the things I thought I couldn't do, I actually could.

I have considered doing a course specifically on novel-writing, but you know how you can feel a bit of a fish out of water if every other student is writing historical romance and you're writing a hard-bitten sci-fi thriller, or whatever?

I suppose the real reasons why I want to write a novel are:
1. I prefer reading novels to short stories and I've read voraciously for years.
2. Numerous people (tutors, literary friends etc) have told me that many of my short stories don't work because they read like novel outlines. Maybe they'd work better as actual novels?
3. Because I can't actually buy the sort of story I want to read and as the saying goes "If you want a job doing, do it yourself".

I'm not really a big fantasy person, but my BIL is a fantasy writer so no doubt he'll be at the big Brighton bash. I could certainly get an 'in' with some agents or editors, only I'm not sure how he'd react. We don't really have much to do with one another. Besides, I'd rather have got a bit further developed on this project before even thinking about selling it.

Anna,

Understood.

I love this:

3. Because I can't actually buy the sort of story I want to read and as the saying goes "If you want a job doing, do it yourself".

Not aimed at you specifically, but I've been thinking a lot recently about how so many authors want to start with novels rather than short fiction. I understand this; however, I'm increasingly seeing parallels between building the necessary skills base in say a sport to allow the practitioner to increase the scope of his/her vision. Or to put it the other way round, if you haven't got the skills base, you'll only have limited vision. I don't think it's really different in writing. And short fiction, I believe, is a more efficient and effective way to build a skills base. But that's just my view.

On World FantasyCon: it won't just be about Fantasy; they'll be plenty of overlap with SF, just as there is at the UK FantasyCon (also in Brighton).

Terry