James Tiptree Jnr...

Emma

I had thought that most writing group members were more likely to be women, but then I write for children. I am sure you can find a group more suited to your needs, just keep looking around.

I attend two South London groups and one's a U3A group with about 8 members, so it's not so surprising that 6 are women and 2 are men or that they're aged over 50. Writing experience varies but at least one has had stories published. The emphasis is on short stories but one man is writing a biography and another woman has had haikus published. the feedback and exercises are great.

The other group's a complete contrast, formed originally from an advanced fiction class at Goldsmiths. I had the same tutor but attended a later year so it seemed very cliquey. They meet fortnightly at a cafe in Brockley, or sometimes in members' houses, and I'd say they are mainly in their thirties with one or two older members and a mix of men and women. Two have done creative writing MAs so it's more literary than the other group.

Oh, and I'm a virtual member of a newly re-formed writers group that meets in a pub in central London but I haven't been to any meetings yet.I imagine that would be good for singles, but I don't know. There seem to be dozens of special-interest meet-up groups in London.

I'd agree about attending a class because you can find one that specialises in your genre. I don't know which genre would be favoured by attractive young women but it would be interesting to know.

I think it's no bad thing to want a girl-friend who suports/admires your writing, and writing groups seem a sensible source.

Another kind of writers' group is 'Liars' League', which meets once a month above a pub off Oxford Street. Writers submit topically themed stories and half a dozen are read out by actors. If you only get to hear your work read out, instead of performing, at least you could schmooze over a pint.

I've been to a similar group that meets at Foyles in Charing Cross Road and there's a bookshop in The Cut at Waterloo which has a stage at the back for literary readings.

Hope some of this helps.

Sheila

Oh my God !!

This topic has certainly stirred up a lot of lively discussions, hasn't it? Yesterday, I was in an English Lit seminar where I completely turned the flow the discussion by claiming a work by a an 18th century Native American is "not literature, but a historical document". Wow, a group of nearly twenty students, despite the snow, and mid afternoon slump, rose up with plenty of passionate views.

After posting that question, I did wonder about how wrong I might be. But I don't regret posing that question about the demographics. But all of you have made me look at writers' groups in a differnt way. Authors like V.S.Naipaul and Don DeLillo have said that they write in order to know how they feel about a certain issue. By writing about the demographics of writing circles, I have fathomed my own weaknesses. The big lesson is that I must not regard age as a significant factor. And I sincerely thank all those who pointed that out to me on WW.

As for gender... well, my main reason for wanting to get to know more women in writers' groups has nothing to do with "getting laid" as another WW member has mentioned. How can a novelist be any good if he is not consistently trying to get inside the minds(and nothing else!) of all the women he comes across?

For a man, writing convincing female characters is a million times harder than remembering his wife or girlfriend's birthday. It is a project of mine to get to know every woman I meet as if she is the one who holds the epiphany I really need to understand womankind. I do this every day. Age is not a factor here.

There is a big difference between a woman who sees the world through words and a non-writing woman.

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And Sheila, thank you so much for your advice too. I really appreciate all the details other contributors posted here about writers' groups. You have all made me a better person. ( I hope that doesn't sound too corny!)

Wish you all a lovely weekend.

How can a novelist be any good if he is not consistently trying to get inside the minds(and nothing else!) of all the women he comes across?

Yes, yes, yes!!! I totally agree and sympathize with this. My last book was written almost exclusively 'in the minds and words' of men, and I found it a revelation - Naipaul was spot on right about that one. I think it's rubbish to say only men can write men and only women can write women, and a real pity more people don't try to cross that divide. If writing isn't about leaping over barriers of perception, then what is?

Go, Cruise, go!

Louise

Louise, I think it is easy for a woman to get inside the mind of a man than vice versa. Thanks for your encouragement. You must have had a lot of fun 'being male' for a few hours every day! Did you think it was so easy being a man?!!

I have one abandoned novel written from a woman's point of view, in her voice. I was just under thirty years old at that time. That experience was just AMAZING ! I think all men should attempt this. My respect and admiration of women just shot to the skies. But the difficulty is knowing whether women readers believe in her voice? You can read all about gender theories. You can read and read about women. But there is no substitute for actually getting to know a 'real' woman, and trying to get inside her wonderful,irritable, complex, crafty, compassionate and hyper-sensitive mind. (!!)

D.H.Lawrence gave up on trying to fathom womankind. But the 21st century man must not throw away his keyboard too easily. Oh what a woman for, a man's reach must exceed his grasp!

I think it's rubbish to say only men can write men and only women can write women, and a real pity more people don't try to cross that divide. If writing isn't about leaping over barriers of perception, then what is?

Lots of writers write from women's and men's points of view, and in their voices. In my own writing I've never thought of it as a divide, just as different characters I might choose to inhabit. I never thought I shouldn't, but it's true that I'm always particularly pleased when men say they found my male narrators convincing, as I would be if I'd written a deep-sea-diver (I'm claustrophobic and hate swimming) and a deep-sea-diver said they were convinced. But so much of the world thinks that we write from experience, not imagination, while to us the latter is the most important and exciting part of our writing lives. So they're rather amazed when we step outside ourselves about something as fundamental to identity as gender. More fool them.

I think it is easy for a woman to get inside the mind of a man than vice versa.

Whenever this one comes up I think of Maya Angelou, in one of her memoirs, writing about an all-black avant-garde theatre group she was involved with. One of the shows involved the cast playing white people, and they got much critical approval for how brilliantly convincing their playing was. Her point was that black people in the society she'd grown up in - the Southern States of the USA in the 30s-60s - had to learn observe white people minutely, in order to read their motivations, feelings, impulses, desires, hatreds, as a necessary condition of survival.

You could argue the same of women having to learn to read men, but not vice versa.

The difficulty is to judge men written by women, or women written by men, because if ever there was a subject on which we can't banish our own subjectivity, it's this. I'm disconcerted, in much of writing by men, by the 'otherness' of their female characters. But do the male characters in writing by women seem equally 'other' to men reading it? I have no way of knowing: they convince me, but then they would, wouldn't they.

Emma

How can a novelist be any good if he is not consistently trying to get inside the minds(and nothing else!) of all the women he comes across?

To my mind, this is over-simplifying the issue. As Emma says, it’s a matter of imagination not just experience, and focusing on gender alone is counter-productive to creating believable characters. I'm a woman, but that doesn’t mean I know what it’s like to be all women. I don’t know, for instance, what it’s like to be a young single mother living on benefits any more than a man can know. I don’t even know what it’s like to be another woman of a similar age, experience and social background as me. All I know is what it’s like to be me. Everything else comes down to imagination and empathy.

Dee

As someone who writes more non-fiction than fiction I suppose I am more interested in observing than in imagining men. I sometimes wonder if imagination is just another word for speculation.

As for imagination, nothing comes from nothing. Even if you can't identify a character as a particular person they are going to have a mix of traits you've encountered(unless you're writing aliens, and even then there's some kind of implied contrast, like Spock's lack of emotion) Writers often say this when asked if their characters are based on real people.

You can only really know much about a person of the other sex and the way he/she acts by observation and by saying things like 'Why did you do that?' and hope to gain some kind of insight from a reply. Manuals about gender personality differences aren't really helpful, except in very general terms.

At the same time people, especially literary characters, can only react in relation to the situations they're given.Or can we draw conclusions from real life and glean how people might behave in the bedroom from, say, how they behave in a writing group? I once met a writing tutor who would say yes - that their patterns of behaviour would show certain traits whether they were eating dinner or buying clothes. So she'd teach sessions called 'How to show character through sexual behaviour.'

This seems a long way from the question but I think I'm agreeing that joining groups a good way to get to know people.


Sheila

Emma, thanks for sharing that bit about Maya Angelou. I'm going to read those memoirs. It's amazing how one discussion topic leads to so many wonderful new discoveries.

And, I have to read The Mathematics of Love before I think about how you write convincing male characters !! I'm looking forward to that experience!

Really pleased I looked at this topic again as I am writing about a male character from the age of 10 years through to adulthood. Struggling a bit with both male and age of 10 and suspect it will be equally difficult following him through teens. Just got to keep thinking about my nephew's behaviours.