what is the difference between a scene and a chapter?

A scene change is often were there a jump in the continuity. eg, At one moment the characters are waiting for a lift to their hotel room chatting about stuff, there's a full stop and the next line starts with them in the room.
This could be a simply new paragraph, it's a judgement call depending on the content of each scene.
It just helps to neatly parcel the chapter up, without going to the trouble of putting a lot of un-necessary direction in such as: 'they went up in the lift, walked down the corridor, fumbled for their keys, unlocked the door....' That direction is fine if it's all part of a seduction scene, or it's an interesting conversation they are having, but boring otherwise.


- NaomiM


<Added>

It can also mark a switch in point of view (pov) if you are telling the story through the eyes of more than one character.
It's not recommended to jumble povs together in a single scene - termed 'head hopping'; the writer is trying to show the reader both characters' (or everyone's) opinion, which is largely un-necesary.

It's not recommended to jumble povs together in a single scene - termed 'head hopping'; the writer is trying to show the reader both characters' (or everyone's) opinion, which is largely un-necesary.

Have to say that this is a view I disagree with. It's technically trickier to move between points of view than stick with one, but it's perfectly possible, and offers scope for things you couldn't do any other way. I'd undertake to explain one way of doing it safely in twenty minutes.

Emma

Naomi Emma and Mel

Thanks for all the extra information on this - I am aiming to write 100,000 words for my novel but who knows how many will spin onto the computer screen. However I will refer to this thread more than once.

Now off to the library to get another book and get some food shopping in. All the housework is done, ironing done, husband out for the day. So no excuses really for not getting down to some writing this afternoon.

Have a good weekend.

Beverley

HI Mel !

Interesting categorisation. What exactly is a 'super plus novel?' Apart from the text being over 100,000 words, what other qualites should it have to be as a 'super plus?!!"

As EmmaD has implied, it all depends on the demands that each novel makes on the novelist. I just completed my first novel. The word count is 198,000. I am finding it tough to 'kill my darlings' during the rewrites. Should I cut it down to the conventional 120,000 words. That's what Germaine Greer once said should be the length of a first novel! But I like the big canvas to showcase my talents as a first time novelist.

Most of my favourite novels are between 140,000 words and 350,000 words. I'm talking about Lolita, DeLillo's Underworld, Bonfire of the Vanities, Money, The Human Stain, and The Corrections. So, when I wrote my first novel, (or at least the first draft of it), I had the Hemingwayesque impulse to 'beat' my idols and precursors!! If I can't beat them in quality, I'll certainly try and do it in quantity!!

I look forward to your responses.
'Cruise'

PS: How about David Foster Wallace's Infinite Jest? That's a sweet and snappy 615,000 words! I wonder how he dealt with the rewrites on that?!! David, if you are reading this from Planet Hemingway, do drop us an email.

So did you get much done?

How near are you towards your 100,000?

I hope all is well.
'Cruise'

The word count is 198,000. I am finding it tough to 'kill my darlings' during the rewrites. Should I cut it down to the conventional 120,000 words..? But I like the big canvas to showcase my talents as a first time novelist.

Well they are two separate things, really. If you are writing it with the aim to get it published, then cutting it down to around 100-120K would probably help your chances enormously. A novel can't be more than one animal, otherwise publishers baulk at accepting it as they find it hard to place in the marketplace.

But if you are using your first novel as a learning curve as you explore the craft of writing, (which is what I did with my first one) then it's probably better to put it to one side and start something new, this time with one eye on publication.


- NaomiM

Ooh just done 2,000 over the last three days - so 4,000 in toto. Only 96,000 to go.

Not bad but I have just looked at the clock - way past my bedtime. Night.

Most of my favourite novels are between 140,000 words and 350,000 words. I'm talking about Lolita, DeLillo's Underworld, Bonfire of the Vanities, Money, The Human Stain, and The Corrections. So, when I wrote my first novel, (or at least the first draft of it), I had the Hemingwayesque impulse to 'beat' my idols and precursors!! If I can't beat them in quality, I'll certainly try and do it in quantity!!

Hello again, Cruise!

This sounds horribly familiar to me! It's exactly what I did. My first book's a big fat historical novel, and since those I like best are huge, so was mine. The word count for my first proper draft was over 500,000 words!!! I noted smugly that this seemed about the same as books like 'The Pillars Of The Earth' or a James Clavell, say, so I didn't anticipate any problems with length.

Wrong-o. 400,000 plus words may be all right if you're Ken Follett, but not if you're Ms No-one like me. Some agents even specify a max length of 180,000 words, and very, very few editors will consider anything from a new writer in excess of 200,000 words. When I finally found this out I was devastated. The book wasn't that baggily written, it was very tightly plotted, and now, after two years hard slog, I had to cut the damn thing to less than half - in other words, rewrite it totally. I did it, and now have a publisher - but even now they want it under 200,000.

There seem to be a number of reasons for this. The most obvious is that a huge book is very expensive to produce, and only worth doing if the publisher's guaranteed a return (ie with a sure-fire established writer). Another is that translation rights are unlikely to sell for a book this long (just think of the cost of translation!). Another is that many publishers still think in the old fashioned tradition of '250 words per page', so that even a 200,000 word novel is 800 pages - and much over that is very unwieldy.

I think it's a great pity. A book should be as long as it needs to be. Like you, I enjoy long novels, and if a book creates a whole new world for me (like a historical) I want to be allowed to stay in it a while before being kicked out again. However, that doesn't seem to be the way it works for tyros like us.

I'm sorry if this is depressing - but I'd hate for you to go through what I did. In your situation I'd aim to keep under 200,000 words in this next draft if at all possible.

Best of luck!

Louise

Goodness, I'd no idea Lolita was in that league; it's years since I read it, but if you'd asked me I'd have said it was on the short side of normal - just shows what a truly great writer can do.

There is the other option, which is to chop it in half, (or even three.) It isn't the easier option, mind you, because you do then have to make the first novel stand absolutely solidly and compellingly on its own, and then pray for a contract which means you can write the second.

Emma

I was recently critiquing a novel on another site where the writer was mixing Sci-Fi (spaceships, mad-scientist experiments) with Fantasy (dragons, magic, magicians, magical creatures), not surprisingly the wordcount had got out of hand, and it was heading into trilogy territory.
Aside from the argument whether or not one should mix SF and Fantasy - and in this example it was a resounding NO - if you find you are doing the same thing, it may be easier just to extract the two genre novels, and write one OR the other, rather than both in the single WIP.


- NaomiM

<Added>

oops,...rather than try to shoehorn both in the single WIP....

Hi Louise, and everyone else!

Thanks for that advice. I think it's great that even in this golden age of short attention span, there are readers like you who would love a long novel of 200,000+ words. Yet, I do get depressed at the prospect of a dwindling readership for novels. But that's another topic altogher!

With Chevalier as your screename, I am intrigued by your novels. I look forward to reading them one day.

Best wishes
'Cruise'