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Why religious faith is rational after all

by randywombat 

Posted: 17 April 2004
Word Count: 3829
Summary: Philosophy of religion: An article about the relationship between reason, evidence and religious faith. I argue that, contrary to the opinions of many modern thinkers, religious faith is straightforwardly rational, and therefore open to evidential confirmation and disconfirmation just like any other belief.


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In the past, I’ve spent a fair bit of time and energy discussing non-rational faith, by which I mean belief in a proposition without the need for supporting reasons for that proposition, and therefore logically immune to argument and disproof.(1) Underpinning these discussions was my basic understanding that religious faith fell into the non-rational category.

But I now think I was mistaken to concentrate on non-rational faith because I was wrong to think that religious beliefs are generally based on it. In this paper, I’ll argue that religious beliefs, like other, more mundane beliefs, are in fact ordinarily rational – that is, grounded in reasons – and none the worse for it.
I realise that I’m flying in the face of the majority of thinkers on both sides of the theist/atheist divide by saying this. There’s fairly widespread agreement that religious faith really is non-rational, or at least it ought to be. The view is theologically fashionable, and accepted implicitly – sometimes explicitly – by theologians and philosophers, evangelicals, lay believers, weak and strong agnostics, and even militant atheists.

Modern theism’s most zealous philosophical apologist, Alvin Plantinga, argues that faith can provide a route to truth that is independent of evidential reason, though not contrary to it. In a review of Dennett (1996), he describes the complementary nature of faith and reason:

"Christians and other theists may think they know by faith that God created the world and in some way superintends or orchestrates or guides the process of evolution…; then they would be claiming to know something in addition to what reason delivers – but not, of course, something that goes contrary to reason." (Plantinga, 1996)

The distinction is drawn even more starkly between rational (science-type) and non-rational (religion-type) beliefs by Joseph H. Royce:

"We have described scientific truth as dependent on rational, empirical confirmation in contrast to the existential validity of religious truth." (Royce, 1959)

Furthermore, the Church itself has traditionally encouraged the characterisation of religious faith as non-rational, and the Bible often exalts this kind of faith without evidence as morally desirable,(2) as highlighted by Richard Dawkins:

"Religious faith not only lacks evidence, its independence from evidence is its pride and joy, shouted from the rooftops. Why else would Christians wax critical of Doubting Thomas? The other apostles are held up to us as exemplars of virtue because faith was enough for them. Doubting Thomas, on the other hand, required evidence [John 20:26-29]. Perhaps he should be the patron saint of scientists." (Dawkins, 1996)

The weight of majority opinion is clearly against me, but despite this, I honestly think that the caricature of evidenceless, non-rational faith is a straw man, set up and perpetuated both consciously and unconsciously by those on both sides of the divide.

In this article, I will start by picking out two almost analytic facts about belief: firstly, that we automatically believe those things that we think are true, based on the balance of considerations available to us; and secondly, that we automatically reject a belief if further considerations are brought to our attention that undermine our reasons for it. I will then argue that these two principles apply to religious beliefs as well as mundane ones. I will also argue that the traditional distinction between reason (on the one hand) and revelation and experience (on the other) is fallacious; revelation and experience are nothing more than good evidence that can be fed into a reasoned argument.

By the way, it goes without saying that, if I’m right and religious faith is rational, this doesn’t mean that religious beliefs are necessarily true, nor does it mean that the reasons on which they are based are necessarily good ones. It simply means that people who hold religious beliefs base them on what they see as good reasons. I’m essentially using ‘rational’ in what George I. Mavrodes called the “Plantinga-Wolterstorff” sense, hence “There would be nothing paradoxical or perverse in someone’s agreeing that it would be rational for him to believe in God and yet cheerfully persisting in his atheism” (Mavrodes, 1983, pp.195-196).

Beliefs are involuntary assessments of truth
We can’t simply decide what to believe. Suppose I demand of you, ‘Believe, please, that I am a giraffe’. I might put a gun to your head, or to the head of a loved one, with the threat that I’ll pull the trigger if you don’t believe what I want you to believe. In such circumstances, perhaps you would passionately want to believe it in order to save a life. Perhaps you would be well advised to feign the belief that I’m insisting on. But, given the obvious perceptual evidence that I’m not a giraffe, you wouldn’t be capable of actually bringing yourself to believe it, no matter how great the threat. Orwellian psychology notwithstanding, that choice is simply not available to you. Once I’ve left the room and my threat has evaporated, the suggestion that I really am (or ever was) a giraffe won’t even occur to you.

The point is not that a belief in God is like a belief that people are giraffes – of course it’s nothing so trivial or obviously false. The point is simply that beliefs, ordinary ones at least, are presented to us as faits accomplis, so to speak; they’re the involuntary products of rational processing, conscious or subconscious, taking into account all considerations whose relevance we’re aware of. We are bound to accept those products, whether we like it or not. Yes, I can want to believe something in order to secure a benefit, such as eternal life, or to avoid a peril, such as the deaths of my loved ones, but (barring the not inconsiderable effects of wishful thinking and self-deception) of I can’t just decide to believe something.(3)

I’m continually amazed by the strength of some people’s resistance to this obvious and (seemingly) uncontroversial point. I suppose, at first glance, it might seem like rather a gloomy suggestion – after all, if our beliefs aren’t caused by our choices, how can we have freedom of belief? But personally, I don’t find it gloomy at all – on the contrary, it’s actually quite heartening, because beliefs are among the few kinds of things that I’d prefer to have externally determined.(4) Think about it this way. My contention is that our beliefs are the result of rational processing, automatically weighing up pros and cons and coming to a conclusion about what, on balance of evidence, appears to be true. Compare that to the alternative, where beliefs are formed by volition – that is, at least to some extent non-deterministically, independently of how things actually are. Wouldn’t you rather acquire your beliefs by the former method rather than the latter? We should be glad if our beliefs are entirely based on external considerations.(5)

Beliefs are rejected if our reasons for them are undermined
We reject any belief which we have reason to think was acquired unreliably – either based on faulty evidence or derived from invalid reasoning. To take a simple Gettier-type example: suppose I look at my watch and it says 3:15. I thereby acquire the belief that it’s 3:15. But, if I now come to realise that my watch is broken, I immediately reject my belief that it’s 3:15 because I now realise that the evidence which originally led me to believe that was faulty: looking at a broken watch isn’t a reliable way to find out the time.

Notice that this is true no matter how firmly I held the initial belief, or how important it was to me. And notice that it’s true even if, by coincidence, it really was 3:15 when I looked at my watch – perhaps I just happened to look at my watch the very second that it stopped, or exactly 24 hours later. The fact that my belief just happened to be true, unbeknown to me, doesn’t stop me from rejecting it when I realise that it was acquired unreliably. I’ll only come to accept my belief as true again when I eventually acquire it reliably – for instance, when I check a functioning clock and realise that it really is 3:15 after all.

We all reject beliefs when we come to realise that they’ve been acquired unreliably – either based on faulty evidence or by invalid reasoning. By implication, for every belief that a person holds, the person also believes that his belief was acquired reliably. Like my previous point that we only accept beliefs we think are true, this is so obvious as to be almost analytic.

Religious beliefs work the same way as mundane ones
I’ve just said that, for every belief that a person holds, the person also believes that his belief was acquired reliably. I think that this is as true for religious beliefs like ‘There is a God’ as it is for mundane ones like ‘It’s 3:15’. Every religious person can say why they believe what they do, what reasons their beliefs are based on, and how they acquired them (be it revelation, experience, tradition or whatever). No religious person will ever say, ‘I believe this for no good reason’. And religious people conspicuously don’t think that their beliefs are simply psychologically-generated consolations produced subconsciously to offset an unhappy life, or that they’re based on illusions, false testimony, or the innate tendency of the evolved human mind to generate supernatural hypotheses. If a religious person did come to think any of those things, then in doing so he would have automatically rejected his belief, just as my discovering that my watch is broken is enough to cause me to reject my belief that it’s 3:15.

Once again, I have to say that all this seems to be very obvious. It also corresponds clearly to what we observe with regard to the more dubious species of religious belief. For instance, what happens to people who are ‘deconverted’ after having been hoodwinked by dodgy American cults? Put simply, they realise that they’ve been conned – that the rational basis for their faith, which they previously took as convincing, was in fact unreliable. And it’s hard to deny, for instance, that a Muslim who discovered that the Qur’an was faked by 18th-century monks rather than dictated by Allah would reject its claims, unless he had a different reason to accept them nonetheless, such as personal experience. Similarly, a Christian who came to believe that the religious experience on which his faith was based was, in fact, a psychological illusion would reject Christianity, unless, again, he had a different reason to accept it.

Revelation and experience are simply reasons to believe
Philosophers have sometimes distinguished between ‘revelation’ and ‘reason’, suggesting that beliefs based on revelation are somehow different to beliefs based on reason. A similar distinction has occasionally been drawn between ‘experience’ and ‘reason’. (Usually, the motivation for drawing the distinction is so that the writer can go on and say, ‘Therefore you can’t challenge my experiences using your rational arguments’.)

I reject this distinction. Of course, revelation and experience can lead to a belief in God – and, if they’re genuine, it’s quite right that they should. But they do this because they are basically just reasons, albeit particularly strong ones, for believing in God.
Since all reasons can sometimes be undermined, revelation and experience aren’t immune to rational challenge. Revelation and experience, no matter how convincing, aren’t infallible because people aren’t infallible.

Religious beliefs can be rationally examined
When it’s recognised that religious belief isn’t really non-rational, the belief can be seen in its proper light – as just as valid a priori as any other belief, scientific or otherwise. Atheists lose the ability to classify any religious belief as automatically inferior to any scientific one on account of its supposedly being ‘not based on evidence’, but this cuts both ways, of course: if religious belief is rational, then its reasons can and should be examined in the cold light of day, and any aspects of them which don’t stand up to rational examination can and should be rejected, regardless of the strength of faith supporting them.

Now, I have no doubt that there are hard-line believers who might thus far have been nodding cautiously, but who would leap to their feet in indignance at this point. There must be something, they protest, that exempts religious belief from rational examination! It’s just not the same kind of thing as mundane beliefs like the belief that it’s 3:15.

But I think people who hold this line are just inconsistent. On the one hand, they can say exactly why they believe what they do, based on experience, revelation, testimony, logical argument, physical evidence or whatever. They’ll use these reasons to explain to others why their beliefs are right, and if they have an evangelical bent, they will try to point out the strength of their reasons to unbelievers as an attempt to convert them. After all, nobody ever said, ‘Why not convert to Christianity for no good reason?’. Yet, on the other hand, they’ll happily deny that their reasons are in fact rationally defensible at all, and insist that they ‘just know’ that they’re right. This shift tends to happen when a challenge or query is raised against some aspect of the theist’s faith. This is what Richard Dawkins has called “flashing one’s religious credentials” in the face of criticism, and it borders on a claim of infallibility, which is unjustified, arrogant, and, of course, false.

Of course, nobody can deny that believing in God is very different from believing it’s 3:15. Belief in God is (or surely ought to be) a life-changing, fundamental, morally and emotionally significant, all-embracing belief whose implications affect one’s entire outlook on life in a way that believing it’s 3:15 just doesn’t. It also tends to be held very firmly, with very great conviction. In short, religious belief is infinitely more significant than some ordinary belief about what time it is. But these many huge differences don’t affect the point that belief in God is always grounded in rational judgement, and rational judgement isn’t flawless because people aren’t infallible. No matter how important or life-changing a belief may be, it doesn’t come with its own guarantee of correctness.

In fact, the opposite could be argued: any belief which is so significant should not be held lightly, but should be subject to the most rigorous rational checking, always erring on the side of caution (Pascal’s wager notwithstanding). The risks of not taking this point seriously enough are great, and this applies to both believers and non-believers.

Belief in God is falsifiable
It’s sometimes been argued that belief in God is unfalsifiable in principle – that no observations or arguments could possibly count against it.(6)

If this were true, it would obviously be a bad thing for theism. Any theory for which there could be no conceivable reasons or evidence that would count against it is empty and should be rejected out of hand. Such a theory makes no difference to anything because it makes no predictions about the universe, is empirically untestable, and is completely indistinguishable from any other theory or from no theory at all. If religious belief were unfalsifiable then it should similarly be rejected, since it would make no difference to anything.
But the idea that religious belief is unfalsifiable strikes me as parallel to the idea that religious faith is non-rational: it’s fashionable but obviously false. If all those skeptical philosophers really think that religious belief is unfalsifiable, why do they spend so long debating the problem of evil? What is the existence of evil if not an alleged falsifier for certain religious claims?

One obvious way to falsify some claims of Christianity would be for Allah to issue a proclamation that He is the One True God; the second coming of Christ would similarly falsify some claims of Islam. Most forms of Western theism would be falsified in practice if many people were to report memories of previous lives that provided evidence for a Hindu-type reincarnation system. And, if the problem of evil is decisive, then any religious claims that rely on postulating an omnipotent and benevolent God are falsified. The fact that religious beliefs are contentful and meaningful guarantees that they are falsifiable, and that’s a good thing for theists, because if it were otherwise, theism would have no implications and there could be no reason for anyone to ever take it seriously.

Another way to appreciate the falsifiability of religious belief is to go back to my earlier point about how religious beliefs are acquired. For instance, Islam would be falsified if the Qur’an turned out to be a fake, unless there were good independent reasons to accept Islam.

By the way, we need to be careful not to confuse unfalsifiability in principle with non-falsification in practice. A theory that has been tested and never falsified, such as quantum physics, is a well-confirmed theory, and it’s perfectly OK to regard it as ‘true’ unless some counter-evidence subsequently comes along. The problem only arises if a theory is literally unfalsifiable – that is, there’s no conceivable evidence, factual or counter-factual, which would falsify the theory if observed.

For this reason, theists should be glad to learn that their faith isn’t unfalsifiable. They’ll still believe, of course, that their beliefs will never in fact be falsified – this is just an unambiguous restatement of my earlier point that, obviously, everyone believes their own beliefs to be true. (No Muslim believes that the Qur’an actually will turn out to be a fake, because being a Muslim entails that you don’t believe that.) Yet, even for our most securely held beliefs, we must also acknowledge that counter-factual falsifying evidence is conceivable.

How theists ought to react
If I’m right and religious faith is rational, the case for theism ought to be strengthened, since atheists are deprived of one of their favourite complaints (“Isn’t religious belief just based on blind faith?”); and theists are saved from having to defend its own non-rationality, which is, by definition, indefensible.

Despite this, I suspect that many theists will strongly resist the conclusion that their faith is rational, for several reasons. Firstly, religious faith been consistently viewed as non-rational since Biblical times, and the dominant view is always rather hard to shake off. Secondly, religious doctrine has frequently extolled blind trust and non-rationality as somehow virtuous (remember Christ admonishing Doubting Thomas?), so some believers may actually react with moral revulsion to the idea of their faith being rational after all. Thirdly (and most cynically), there’s always the worry that, once we open the floodgates to rational examination, some of religion’s most cherished tenets will suddenly come under threat, threatening the very survival of the faith which has defended itself so well for so long by shouting from the rooftops (in Dawkins’s phrase) its independence from reason and evidence. Where will it all end?

The only reassurance I can offer to counter this third worry is unfortunately rather analogous to the rather Big-Brotherish political insistence that honest citizens have nothing to fear from the ever-closer monitoring of a police state. Take each religious belief in turn: now, either it does stand up to rational enquiry or it doesn’t. If it does, then theists have nothing to fear, and their faith will be strengthened by the rational support that this belief enjoys. If it doesn’t, then we must be ruthless, for there is no room in an intelligent faith for an irrational belief.

Naturally, this latter possibility will be psychologically much more difficult for adherents, and we mustn’t be surprised if there are a few attempts to retreat back into the unassailable comfort of non-rationality, however forlorn this comfort must eventually prove. But perhaps we can apply an analogous cold logic to that employed by Bishop John Robinson (1963, p.43) when he argued for the demythologising of the Christian faith, and point out that, in the long run, theism can only be strengthened by removing those barriers of irrationality which can be obstacles to an intelligent faith – “and indeed will progressively be so to all except the ‘religious’ few”.

Notes
(1) Other terms have been used to refer to this species of faith. Philosophers, whose self-conscious need to assert the importance of their discipline leads them to invent terms that nobody else understands, sometimes refer to it as ‘fideism’. The term ‘blind faith’ has also been used as a synonym, usually by either hardline atheists or religious fundamentalists; I’ll avoid this term because of its pejorative overtones.

(2) Though the Bible does not always take this stance; see also, for instance, Isaiah 1:18; 1 Samuel 12:7; John 14:11; John 20:31; Romans 16:25-26; 1 Corinthians 14:22; and much of Hebrews 11. A thorough survey of the Scriptural precedent for reasoned, evidence-based faith is chapter 1 of Forster & Marston (1999).

(3) I’m deliberately ignoring wishful thinking and self-deception here, not because I don’t think they have significant effects, but just because even those people who endorse non-rational faith would agree that they aren’t good routes to belief.

(4) On the other hand, ‘freedom of belief’ in the political sense is of course a good thing – it means protection against being harmed for your beliefs – and this is true whether or not I’m right about the involuntary nature of beliefs.

(5) This implies, by the way, that it would be wrong to hold someone morally responsible for their beliefs, provided (perhaps) that they haven’t been negligent in coming to them. Whether this can be reconciled with the attitude towards ‘sinful belief’ that one finds as a running theme in both the Bible and the Qur’an is another question. An interesting discussion is in Plantinga & Wolterstorff (1993).

(6) Throwing down the gauntlet to theism, Antony Flew (1950) wrote what claims to be the “most read philosophy article of the 20th century”, a short paper entitled Theology and Falsification, challenging theists to show why religious faith is falsifiable after all.

References
Dawkins, R., 1996: ‘Is Science a Religion?’. In The Humanist, Jan/Feb 1997. Also available online at http://www.thehumanist.org/humanist/articles/dawkins.html

Dennett, D., 1995: Darwin’s Dangerous Idea. London: Penguin.

Flew, A., 1950: ‘Theology and falsification’. In Flew & MacIntyre (ed), 1955. Reprinted in many places, including Philosophy Now Oct/Nov 2000, pp.28-29. Also available online at http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/antony_flew/theologyandfalsification.html

Flew, A., & MacIntyre, A. (ed), 1955: New Essays in Philosophical Theology. London: SCM Press.

Forster, R., & Marston, P., 1999: Reason, Science and Faith. Crowborough: Monarch Publications. Also available online at http://www.reason-science-faith.co.uk

Mavrodes, G. I., 1983: ‘Jerusalem and Athens revisited’. In Plantinga & Wolterstorff (ed), 1983.

Plantinga, A., & Wolterstorff, N. (ed), 1983: Faith and Raionality:reason and belief in God. Notre Dame, Indiana: University of Notre Dame Press.

Plantinga, A., 1996: Review of Dennett, 1995. Available online at http://id-www.ucsb.edu/fscf/library/plantinga/dennett.html

Robinson, J., 1963: Honest to God. London: SCM Press.

Royce, J. H., 1959: ‘The search for meaning’. In American Scientist 48.

2 September 2003






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Comments by other Members



word`s worth at 15:07 on 17 April 2004  Report this post
Hello Toby,

I read your article with interest and, I like to think, with an open-mind as faith and belief in God is an important subject to me. I'm of the point of view that faith and religion is a personal choice and shouldn't be imposed or forced on anyone with a view to converting someone to your way of thinking. Yes, 'your way of thinking' (your = general - not you, Toby) because all religions are open to interpretation and what one person takes away from reading the Bible or The Quran for e.g. may differ hugely from another's. Everyone finds their own path to their own 'truth' - so to speak.

if religious belief is rational, then its reasons can and should be examined in the cold light of day, and any aspects of them which don’t stand up to rational examination can and should be rejected, regardless of the strength of faith supporting them.

Now, I have no doubt that there are hard-line believers who might thus far have been nodding cautiously, but who would leap to their feet in indignance at this point. There must be something, they protest, that exempts religious belief from rational examination!


What is a hard-line believer? The thing about faith is either you believe or you don't. You can't say 'I believe a little bit that there's a God.' And if you do say that, then you owe it to yourself to find the answers to the questions that cause your 'doubt'. Islam, the religion I was brought up in, contrary to popular belief, encourages the individual to question everything, even that which is written in The Quran (as you mentioned, Muslims believe it to be the very word of God Himself.) When you question and find the answer yourself instead of following blindly, it can only strengthen your faith and your belief.

I'm a little curious as to how much you actually studied Islam before writing this article. Your examples seem to be a little inaccurate to put it mildly:

One obvious way to falsify some claims of Christianity would be for Allah to issue a proclamation that He is the One True God;


'some claims of Christianity' - Are you speaking of the Trinity here? as in God is the Father, as well as the Son i.e. Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit. If so then yes, Muslim believe that Jesus was a prophet and not God, nor indeed the son of God. However,

'Allah to issue a proclamation that He is the One True God'

'Allah' is the Arabic word for 'God'. Even Christian Arabs use it. People ignorant of Islam seem to think that Allah is the name of the Muslim god, where in fact it is just the Arabic word for the English word 'God'. Allah/God has indeed proclaimed that He is the One True God - in The Quran, in The Bible and, unless I'm very wrong, in The Torah! Monotheism - I believe it's called. So to me your sentence read: 'God to issue a proclamation that He is the One True God.' Can you see where I'm coming from?

"the second coming of Christ would similarly falsify some claims of Islam."

Once again, where have you done your research? Have you researched the same religion I was taught and brought up in?

Muslims do believe that Jesus will return. It's written in 'Hadith' the teachings of the Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) and even given as one of the major signs signalling the nearing of the Day of Judgment. So how it can falsify some claims of Islam, I'm not really sure - but would be happy to hear how you came to that conclusion. Perhaps you meant Judaism? Incidently, I found the fact that you didn't mention anything about Judaism, one of the main religions, a little odd.

As I said, I read it with interest initially, and I'm not pointing these things out simply because they're about Islam - I would do the same for other religions or subjects that I knew about and found that they were put across inaccurately and unfairly. The aim is to educate minds not feed them with more misinformation. Especially when there's so much of it being thrown around in this day and age.

Best wishes

Nahed



randywombat at 17:18 on 17 April 2004  Report this post
Nahed

Thanks very much for your thoughtful comments.

Allow me to clarify any bits that might have been unclear in my original article.
all religions are open to interpretation and what one person takes away from reading the Bible or The Quran for e.g. may differ hugely from another's.

I can't argue with this! If only everyone shared your view, the world would be a nicer and more tolerant place.
What is a hard-line believer? The thing about faith is either you believe or you don't. You can't say 'I believe a little bit that there's a God.'

Well, there are such things as degrees of belief, aren't there? How about this?: 'I believe that the capital of Mozambique is Maputo, but I'm not totally sure'. What does that mean? I suggest it means something like 'If you forced me to come down one way or the other, I'd say that Maputo is the capital. But I wouldn't be prepared to wager very much on that because I'm not really very certain. If you forced me to quantify, I'd say I'm 70% sure that the capital of Mozambique is Maputo'.

Can't this principle apply to religious belief too? Couldn't there be someone who said, 'Well, I'm (20%/40%/60%/80%/whatever) sure there's a God, but I might be wrong'? That strikes me as the rational attitude to take. I don't think it's an all-or-nothing thing.
And if you do say that, then you owe it to yourself to find the answers to the questions that cause your 'doubt'. <snip> When you question and find the answer yourself instead of following blindly, it can only strengthen your faith and your belief.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. That's one of the main points of my article.
I'm a little curious as to how much you actually studied Islam before writing this article.

I've studied it to an extent, but I don't know it as closely as I know, say, Christianity, so I'm quite willing to be corrected on any specific points.
One obvious way to falsify some claims of Christianity would be for Allah to issue a proclamation that He is the One True God;

Christianity and Islam aren't the same religion. As a logical minimum, that means that Christianity embraces some propositions which Islam rejects, and/or vice versa. Here's one that, say, mainstream Western Christianity embraces and Islam rejects: 'Jesus Christ is the incarnation of God'. Either that proposition is true, as Christians believe, or false, as Muslims believe. Hence, the falsity of that proposition would falsify a claim of Christianity, and the truth of that proposition would falsify a claim of Islam (that Jesus is not the incarnation of God).
'Allah' is the Arabic word for 'God'. Even Christian Arabs use it. People ignorant of Islam seem to think that Allah is the name of the Muslim god, where in fact it is just the Arabic word for the English word 'God'. Allah/God has indeed proclaimed that He is the One True God - in The Quran, in The Bible and, unless I'm very wrong, in The Torah!

I realise that 'Allah' is an Arabic translation of 'God', so in that sense I accept that I was using it in a loose sense to refer merely to the Islamic (conception of) God. Sorry - I could have been clearer.

That said, your comments seem to imply that you regard the Islamic, Christian and Jewish Gods as being one and the same (perhaps revealed in different contexts). That's certainly a valid view, and it's one I find fairly attractive. And it may well be true. But it's not a view embraced by the majority of Christians, nor, I suggest, the majority of Muslims or Jews. Each religion's (conception of) God has some quite different properties from another's, and (to put it as mildly as possible), a large number of Christians firmly believe that the God as revealed in the Bible is the one true God, while believers of other religions are just wrong about what they think God is like.

Of course, the question of (for instance) how many of the Christian God's properties you can deny while still maintaining that you believe in the same God is an open one. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I do think that the presupposition I made in my article - that the Islamic, Christian and Jewish Gods are numerically different and in many respects mutually exclusive - is at least uncontroversial.
"the second coming of Christ would similarly falsify some claims of Islam." Once again, where have you done your research? Have you researched the same religion I was taught and brought up in? Muslims do believe that Jesus will return.

Fair point - I accept the correction. Again, though, I think I was being loose rather than just wildly inaccurate; I was using 'Christ' to refer to the Christian conception of Jesus as the Christ, not the Muslim conception. Granted, the Aramaic 'Isa al Masih' is arguably equivalent to 'Jesus Christ' if 'Christ' just means 'Messiah', i.e. 'anointed one' - so there may not be that much difference in terminology here. But Christian scholars have widely used 'Christ' rather more specifically to mean the Christian conception of Jesus as the Son of God.

Anyway, I suppose I should have said that the Second Coming of Christ in the Christian sense would falsify some claims of Islam. That is, if Christ returns to Earth in glory, proclaiming Himself to be the Son of God, judging the living and the dead, and establishing the Kingdom of Heaven, that would falsify some claims of Islam - wouldn't it?
Incidently, I found the fact that you didn't mention anything about Judaism, one of the main religions, a little odd.

True, though of the three Abrahamic religions it's the one I know the least about. In my defence, this was an article on the philosophy, not comparative theology; I mention specific religions purely as illustrations. In principle, I could have made the same points without mentioning any specific religion at all (though it would have been rather abstract).

Thanks again for your comments; I hope this clarifies things in return. If I do republish, I may well make some changes based on the loopholes you've identified!

Cheers
Toby

randywombat at 17:20 on 17 April 2004  Report this post
It won't let me edit my comments, so sorry to double-post, but I've spotted that a misplaced comma leaves me open to misinterpretation! I wrote:

Each religion's (conception of) God has some quite different properties from another's, and (to put it as mildly as possible), a large number of Christians firmly believe that the God as revealed in the Bible is the one true God, while believers of other religions are just wrong about what they think God is like.


And what I meant to write was:

Each religion's (conception of) God has some quite different properties from another's, and (to put it as mildly as possible), a large number of Christians firmly believe that the God as revealed in the Bible is the one true God and that believers of other religions are just wrong about what they think God is like.


word`s worth at 21:27 on 17 April 2004  Report this post
Hi Toby

About the edit feature..it wouldn't let me edit either when I first posted...but it seems to have corrected itself now.

Wow...it looks like I'm going to be getting into a theological debate ;) It's a subject that can get quite heated, but I think with mutual respect of each other's beliefs it can be a healthy debate...so here goes!

Well, there are such things as degrees of belief, aren't there?


Yes, I agree if you're talking about religion - there are moderates/fundamentalists etc...no matter what degree of belief you have in a religion the core of that belief is the acknowledgement that there is a God or if you like a Greater Power. I would agree that the degree of belief in God will vary throughout a person's lifetime dictated by their own spiritual experiences - but the bottom line, for me anyway, is once you decide/realise/acknowledge the existence of God then it doesn't matter whether you really, really, really believe in Him or just simply believe in Him. My personal opinion. I'm sure there are those who would disagree (yourself included :) ). Your example of believing that Maputo is the capital of Mozambique - this is something you can easily have proven or disproven...but how can you prove or disprove the existence of God? It's not an easy thing to make comparisons with.

Christianity and Islam aren't the same religion.


They're not now, but that was the intent from way before Jesus' time. The basic messages of the religions (I'm referring to Islam, Christianity and Judaism) is the same. We share the same prophets (Islam being the youngest mentions and revers all of the prophets), the same ideals and the same morals. As I said...not now...but certainly before power-hungry clerics decided to adapt the teachings of the prophets to their own aims.

That said, your comments seem to imply that you regard the Islamic, Christian and Jewish Gods as being one and the same (perhaps revealed in different contexts).


Yes! The God who spoke to Moses (pbuh) through a burning bush is the same God who breathed life into the womb of Mary to give birth to the prophet Jesus (pbuh) and the same God who enlightened Mohamed (pbuh) and spoke through him His words that are now written in the Quran. In the Quran it says there will be no other prophet after Mohamed (pbuh) - it is the seal of the message from God. It's been more than 1400 years and it still stands true. One God - in every sense of the word.

But it's not a view embraced by the majority of Christians, nor, I suggest, the majority of Muslims or Jews.


I can't speak for Christians or Jews but I have to disagree with your suggestion that the same view isn't taken by the majority of Muslims. It's the view taken by ALL Muslims. We all share the same God!

Each religion's (conception of) God has some quite different properties from another's, and (to put it as mildly as possible), a large number of Christians firmly believe that the God as revealed in the Bible is the one true God, while believers of other religions are just wrong about what they think God is like.

Of course, the question of (for instance) how many of the Christian God's properties you can deny while still maintaining that you believe in the same God is an open one. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I do think that the presupposition I made in my article - that the Islamic, Christian and Jewish Gods are numerically different and in many respects mutually exclusive - is at least uncontroversial.


Don't get me started, Toby! There is an argument regarding the differences - numerical differences - between how Christian, Muslims and Jews view God (the same God, mind!) that the only reason this has happened is because the religious texts - I refer to the Bible - is not true to the original text. It has been rewritten, added to and changed too many times depending on which religious christian sect is in power. This has resulted in the tragic loss of the original message. That is why there was a need for God to remind people of that message - through another and last prophet via a text that has remained unchanged for more than 1400 years.

I don't think or write this with a superior thought of 'my religion is better than yours'. That's what's causing all this damned trouble! It's with the thought, my religion is yours and when you get down to the bone of it..there's nothing that differentiates you from me or me from you. So I would agree with you that according to individuals or groups/sects the One God maybe be numerically different...but take 'Man' out of the equation and I would disagree and say that there is no difference whatsoever.

To be continued in another post...I think there's a limit to the length of post.

word`s worth at 21:44 on 17 April 2004  Report this post
Okay, nearly at the end now...phew!

Second Coming of Christ in the Christian sense would falsify some claims of Islam. That is, if Christ returns to Earth in glory, proclaiming Himself to be the Son of God, judging the living and the dead, and establishing the Kingdom of Heaven, that would falsify some claims of Islam - wouldn't it?


As Muslims believe in the return of Jesus (pbuh) but in a different context to what the Christians believe I think that when that happens, as both religion seem to believe it's the signalling of Judgment Day, I think the matter of it falsifying any religion would be the last thing on anyone's mind. Sorry, I don't mean to sound flippant. I'm not of the belief that all Muslims will go to heaven just for being Muslims and the rest will go to hell. Ultimately, it's your actions towards others, this earth and most importantly to God that matter, no matter what label you live under.

Thanks for hearing me out on this...hope I didn't go on too much! (Yes, Nahed, you did!)

So, as this thread is supposed to be on comments on writing technique and not theology - then let me just say you have a lot of thought provoking theories here.

Good luck with wherever you wish for this to lead.

Nahed


shotgun45 at 13:42 on 18 August 2005  Report this post
Hello Toby,

I enjoyed reading your article, which tackles issues that usually seem to be left unsaid. I suppose it's natural these days, as science plays a greater and greater role in our society, that we look for rational justifications of what we believe in. But I don't think it helps us to understand religion any better. If anything, it alienates us from our beliefs.

Your article seems to hang on the assumption that "We all reject beliefs when we come to realise that they’ve been acquired unreliably...". I don't think this is necessarily true. The value of religion is that one can hold beliefs that just aren't subject to the scrutiny that we give to ordinary every day events. What I mean is, for me at least, having a belief in a religion allows me to put any rational event into a perspective whereby I can see human rationality as a fallible thought process.

I believe that belief in God is in all probability unfalsifiable. But I don't think this damages religion in any way. To falsify a God using human logic and/or perception seems to be contradictory in its very nature, not to mention arrogant given the insignificance of the human race in the face of a God.

Of course, this does leave religions open to criticisms, such as 'Hey, you could reject any criticism of your religion just by saying that you have blind faith.' I understand these criticisms, and I understand that people like to have evidence for theories. But religion is not a theory, as it sometimes comes across in your article, but a belief and a trust in the unknown.

I found your article to be informative, well-written, and open-minded, and it asks important questions. It suggests a lot of religious believers are complacent with their views and I think this is true, and I include myself in that, which is why I enjoyed reading what you had to say.

Best wishes,
Ian.


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